You mean exactly what people were saying from 2011, people who had hindsight to see such a thing, but how certain other posters like to turn into writing players off, rather than what was exactly seen.

Foresight rather than hindsight. They'll be some on here who are still sat on the fence on Vickery and think there could be a quality half on the squad fringes.



He's OK as proper hookers go but he's no Rob Burrow.

Gotcha - what we saw from 2012 to 2015 was either the most successful 4-year period in the history of the club or the second. So what point are you trying to make - that wholesale changes should have been made in 2011? If so, hindsight shows that until 2015 the club got it spot on.

For 2016 before the season started many people (me included) were willing to give the club the benefit of the doubt with Sutcliffe at 6, Ferres coming in, Falloon etc. With the benefit of hindsight we can say that was probably not the right decision.

What really surprised me is the complete lack of activity for this season. We're second but light years behind Cas and got thumped in the one big game we've played this year. If Wigan and/or Sts had been better for longer periods we'd have struggled for 4th with Hull. It may all come right in the end, but I think we've got very lucky to be second.

Looking forward I'm quite positive about Myler and Dwyer as at the least its drawing a firm line in the sand in key positions. What I am very concerned about is that no less than 6 of our pack (Galloway, Cuthbertson, Ablett, Deleany, Ferres and JJB) are over 30 and only going to deteriorate with another year on the clock, and its not as if they're running rampant today. That's more than the old Northern pack of Peter Fox days, and the sport is far more dynamic than it was then, and yet there seems to be little appetite to even start revamping.

My other concern can more squarely be put on the coach - our complete inability to make full use of the two proven class backs we have in Hall and Watkins. That is partly down to players we have, but is also a lot to do with lack of planned ways to get them the ball where it hurts, and is easily the most obvious difference between us and Cas.

This is one of the most balanced and sensible posts I've read on here in a while...it's just not right can we please add some hyperbole, everything is either the best thing ever or we're doomed.

I've been saying to folk all season...can you imagine how devestating Watkins and Hall would be in Cas' team/structure. When you compare how much their players work off the ball in attack to get numbers etc to our "off the cuff" attack it's embarrassing...and that's purely a coaching matter.

I can assure you, nobody has the hindsight to see 2017 in 2011. Even if they had the foresight, they wouldnt realistically have improved our performances in 2011 to 2015.

we had a bad season in 2016 but are 2nd right now. The club have and continue to prove you wrong.

Id accept an argument that says the quality of the league has fallen, and we arent the quality a side who are second should be. But it makes no sense for me to argue we are lucky to be 2nd. I don't think we are. I think Saints and Wigan are as bad as they have been.

As for Cas, they have been great this season, and very consistent, but people pretend like this was expected. But this is largely the same side that have been mid-table for the past 4 years. I dont think anyone would have bet on them putting this year together as they have, I dont even expect them to be able to do it next year in the same way. If Cas are the same side they have been for the past 4 years we are top of the league right now.

I think there is a problem Leeds fans have in judging our performances. That is that over the last 10 or so years the standard of the league has fallen. Over the past 4 or so years that fall has been precipitous. If Leeds were standing still that would be an amazing job, but we arent, we are going backwards too. Its hard to square the club doing a good job with the standard going backwards because it leaves us in a position where an inferior squad as we have that has simply regressed less than others, is good.



I have to agree that we havent and dont make the most of Hall as a winger and as a fan its frustrating to see him used as an extra prop, but he is very good at it and (whisper it) it works. Watkins too, can be an excitement machine, he is skillful, physical, he has it all. To see him used as he doing the defensive work of three is frustrating and needs to be resolved but that may not be available with the personel we have?

I too look forward to seeing Myler whose speed in the middle and support play we have been missing since Mags legs went and i think will make a huge difference to how we play. Dwyer too is a good signing for me. Will allow us to rest Parcell, and is sort of a Burrow-lite in that he gives plenty around the ruck and speed and dynamism but no-one can match Burrow in that regard, Dwyer however is a far better defender.

With regards to the pack, i dont think individually any stand out as 'done' however as a group they lack speed and dynamism. I have to say though that Stevie Ward last season and the middle to end of this season is a real stand out who is hitting the line hard, fast and with great hands. His passing is giving us another option and we are seeing another year on the clock for all those you mention, its also another year under the belt for the likes of Cam Smith, JJR, Oledzeki

I get and agree that us and others are lucky somewhat that Wigan have been injury hit. I don't get the bit about Saints though, pretty much been where I thought they'd be, no fortune at all involved us being above them imo.

Saints early season were more injury hit than anyone has been. Never really recovered from it.

That is exactly the point made, how something so simple can be so simply misunderstood and misconstrued. It happens on here all the time.

Can posters really not see a difference between succession planning and wholesale changes? It mistifies me, how people can not understand a difference. The succession planning point was what I responded to, and the very point mentioned back in 2011. Wholesale changes are simply something put out to go against it.

Time for Leeds to make him a marquee player.

No they weren't at all. They had a couple out like most teams but definitely not anything major. Marty Smith missed the start of the year but even on his return he's been a big disappointment and Saints fans argue that he's been their worst signing in a long time.

And they did recover from their start as they were in pole position for a playoff spot after beating Cas week 1 of the 8's, they then lost the next 3 which have left them relying on others losing. They win those 3 they'd be 2nd right now so completely wrong to blame the start.

Gotcha has been over rating the Saints for the past few seasons.

They are around where they should be for me, we are probably over achieving granted and are about the same level as them as a side on the whole. Both teams are a pale shadow of a few years back and wouldn't be near contending for anything pre 2012.

I may well have thought they would do better this year, but not sure where the over rating other years would come from? I always said their coach was a problem, something they took the right action on earlier this year, and something they will reap the benefits of after a full preseason next year.

i recall you including them as an example as a side better than us and further down the road to rebuilding over the last few years although, granted you have said they lack a proper coach at times.

We will see what their new coach brings next year with a full pre season behind him. I'm still of the belief they have average halves, average three quarters and a plodder pack in general.

average half, average three quarters and a plodder pack.reminds me of us

It's been said often this year that we'd be nowhere if Parcell and/or Cuthbertson got injured. I think looking at Saints you could've said the same thing for 3 years now with Roby and Walmsley.

correct, like i said, i think us and Saints are about the same level on paper



Think our backs are above average though, but with our playing style and lack of structure they don't get chance to max their potential and they therefore fall under the average category, but it's hardly been a recent phenomenon has it?

fully agree with you. Take them 2 out of Saints pack you have LMS, Wilkin, Amor, Thompson etc... average is being kind.

Amor's an interesting one because just the other week on the Saints board they were criticising him saying that whilst he was good in his first year he hasn't done much since really and are very low on him at the moment.

Hard to disagree there though. I thought WTF did we let him go after the first year there, but he has been a plodder since and not kicked on really.

Absolutely, a mate of mine said we should get him back, why ? he would not make one iota of difference to our forward ' strength

He is a decent squad filler at best but not someone you would go out of your way to sign imo.

As it stands not one we will look back on and think 'one that got away'

Amor back to Wakey is what i have heard.
Not from a too reliable source though.

Did Frosties tell you that?

Not this time lol