My point was that it appears to be a fairly regular occurrence with Leeds where a handling mistake will be compounded by the concession of a penalty in the following set - double whammy - not completing a set of possession is bad enough without making matters worse. Two of the three Leeds penalties conceded at Warrington came in such circumstances or do you disagree with that observation? You could have a look while you're watching Kirke making both drives with ball in hand and tackles when not this week contrary to your observation from last week which is surely worth another look : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=51

My point was that it appears to be a fairly regular occurrence with Leeds where a handling mistake will be compounded by the concession of a penalty in the following set - double whammy - not completing a set of possession is bad enough without making matters worse. Two of the three Leeds penalties conceded at Warrington came in such circumstances or do you disagree with that observation? You could have a look while you're watching Kirke making both drives with ball in hand and tackles when not this week contrary to your observation from last week which is surely worth another look : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=51

Based upon what I have seen, when they play actual rugby, not from reading statistics after the event, Hall has had a terrific season. Moon has had an inconsistent season.

I'm not writing him off. I've seen enough to think he can be a good player. But I recognise that he has shown some failings. Watch friday how many times he will be heading towards Hall, step off his left to straighten his run and be easily tackled. He takes this option far more than supplying Hall or using Hall as a foil.

I am afraid Juan I can't show you any opta stats about this so you might have to actually watch the game to see it.

Look this is sport. Coaches and professional players practice and strive for error free performances with good discipline. Even Champion players fall below their targets sometimes. Our discipline in the last couple of games has been good so looking to make some spooky case based on what came before 2 out of 3 penalties is really scaping the barrel.

The match against Warrington was just not to be our day. We came up against a pack that was in better form than ours and whose line speed and PTB was very quick and who were allowed to be offside and mess about in the tackle. We lost most of the 50/50 calls and all this meant they gained the all important momentum which proved decisive in the 2nd half.

With regard to Kirke, I have said on many occassions I am not a big fan and would have dropped him. However the critics are one eyed and for example against Warrington his metres per carry was the 3rd best. I also note the Kirke critics have kept very quiet regarding Bailey's awful lack of go forward which bears repeating. 6 carries for just 19 metres making a bottom of the table 3.17metres per carry. And your friend Kylie just 7 carries and 10 tackles. Come on now!

If you don't look at stats Hall has looked below average even for most of this season. He has worse ball retention than Thackery had, and his defence is the worst of all our backs.

That so called pass into touch from Moon on Saturday, would have been a try on the other side of the field, as BJB wouldn't have been a few metres ahead of where he should have been, which is something Hall has consistently done this year.

Just saying like.

I too base my opinion on what I see played on the pitch. However it is useful to be able to back opinion up with facts.

Hall has not had a terrific season. He has been well below his own high standards for much of the season. I do not fault his work rate or his go forward. But his finishing has been well below his own par with nobody else to blame. His handling has been poor as has his missed tackling which has led to cruicial tries being scored against us eg his miss on Westwood on Saturday and his rushing out of the line to miss tackles like he did in the WCC. He has had some terrific games too but they have been the exception. He shown better form in recent games but too late for consideration for ther DREAM TEAM which in other years would have been automatic.

You complain that Moon has been inconsistent. But who hasn't this year? If he has been inconsistent then what a players he is being inconsistent.

1. To tackler in our backs
2. Top offloader in the whole team
3. Top equal for clean breaks
4. Equal 2nd try scorer (1 behind Watkins equal with Hall)
5. One less try assist than Watkins who has had 30% more carries

These facts suggest a fine all round centre. He is in his first season with us, which has seen little quality ball reaching either centre and no attacking FB like Webb to create overlaps on the left.. I think he has class and has made some tries out of nothing and will only get better as he settles into the team.

I think G1 that had you been paying closer attention at matches you would have seen this for yourself.

Not going from stats. I think Hall has been superb this season.
I'd agree Moon has been inconsistent but I think part of that is due to the relatively poor ball he's been receiving. The same goes for Watkins.

If Hall has been superb this season, what was he last season? Or the season before that?

[iWorld class[/i?

WBW!!!



Only superb this season then.

Wot a let down.

Hall's not been great this year, although we have a general problem in supplying ball to the backs and scoring tries per se, not just for Hall. Every single one of our threequarters has scored fewer tries this year than last.

Hardaker

2013: 9 Tries from 25
2013: 21 Tries from 37
2011: 12 Tries from 15

BJB

2013: 9 tries from 12
2012: 23 tries from 32
2011: 13 tries from 19

Watkins

2013: 19 tries from 27
2012: 20 tries from 27
2011: 11 tries from 16

Moon

2013: 15 tries from 28
2012: 11 tries from 19 (for Salford)


Hall

2013: 16 tries from 35
2012: 33 tries from 37
2011: 32 tries from 35

McGuire

2013: 8 tries from 21
2012: 22 tries from 26
2011: 10 tries from 17 + 5 sub

Burrow

2013: 8 tries from 30
2012: 12 tries from 27 + 3 sub
2011: 12 tries from 22 + 12 sub

He was just as good, if not better last season, just in slightly different ways.
This year he's been outstanding, in my view, in defence and in transition. His kick returns or runs on play 1 or 2 following a kick have really helped get us up field.

I know you're knocking on a fair bit so maybe it's harder for you to focus on the rugby. I guess that is why you pay so much attention to the statistics, because you can sit back in your shackleton with your illuminated magnifier sipping your horlicks and base your opinions upon those stats.

Now, if we've both finished being condescending towards each other, we clearly have a difference of opinion. You've lept to Moon's defence heroically but you don't appear to have realised that my criticism of Moon was also tempered with some praise.

I can handle that we have different opinions about players. In fact, when my opinion about a player differs from a poster who can often be found defending billy 3 carries I am more than comfortable with that.

In your opinion, which others can judge the value of.

I don't understand this. BJB would have been a few metres ahead of where he should have been and this guarantees a try? Hall has consistently been a few metres ahead of where he shoudl have been this season?

Is it gibberish or am I missing a wink?

No you just can't read. No doubt so desperate to post a response and get defensive, that's probably the problem.

Read it again, and it is very clear.

Is it spooky when it's been a noticeable trait all season even if it's passed the good folk of Opta and some others by?

Opening the book with the first game of the season at Home to Hull

5th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Moon from a loose carry
6th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Bailey - Interference at the Play The Ball

12th minute - =#0000FFLost possession - Sinfield - poor offload in traffic
13th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Peacock - Interference at the Play The Ball

V Melbourne in the World CLub Challenge

30th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Burrow - I think we can all remember this one
31st minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Delaney - Interference at the Play The Ball

35th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Moon - Poor pass selection
35th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Burrow - Offside at scrum

61st minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Ward - Poor pass from Sinfield
62nd minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Peacock - Offside at the Play The Ball

V St Helens Away

7th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Ward - From an incorrect Play The Ball
7th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Jones-Buchanan - Interference at the Play The Ball

64th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Ablett - From a McShane Pass
65th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - McShane - Interference at the Play The Ball

V Bradford Home

20th minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - McGuire - From a Jones-Buchanan offload
21st minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Jones-Buchanan - Pushing and Not Square at the Play The Ball

62nd minute - =#0000FFLost possession - Ablett - Ball stolen
62nd minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Ablett - Interference at the Play The Ball

These were just in some of the Sky Leeds games covered before the end of March and if I continued the list the trend would almost certainly continue as it's been a noticeable feature in Leeds game all season and there were still the two instances again in Saturday's game at Warrington. To fail to complete your sets of possession can happen but to then allow that frustration to lead to a further loss in field position and more defensive duties is poor by any standard.

Even when Leeds have a comparative walkover encounter such as the game V London at the Stoop it's still in their armoury:

7th minute - =#0000FFForward Pass - Burrow - Shocker
8th minute - =#FF0000Penalty - Peacock - High tackle

41st minute - =#0000FFKnock-On - Moon - Pass from Sinfield
41st minute - =#FF0000Penalty - ? - Offside



Warrington out-played Leeds because first and foremost they have a better squad and a much better coach. They have two high quality hookers while Leeds have none with an interchange policy that shares the front-row workload evenly and that doesn't appear to carry spare parts who are given scant minutes after the result is decided. I would have thought ranting at the referee was below your usual standards but if you want to plumb those depths, then carry on.



The Kirke critics can answer that one themselves. The Bailey stat looks poor and before the game I was calling for Singleton to retain his starting place after a great showing the week before but obviously the coach (no doubt with your full backing) knows best.

According to Opta?



Whose facts, are they trustworthy and can they describe the actual incidents that determine a game? They are numbers on a spreadsheet - they are not rugby league.

For example what your 'facts' won't have noticed on Saturday is which player was left on the ground by Westwood as Monaghan (Michael - a genuine hooker) expertly engaged the A defender (Delaney) which caused the B defender (Jones-Buchanan) to sink in on defence which opened a huge gap between the B and C defender (Watkins) which allowed a carthorse such as Grix (Simon) to romp through embarrass Hardaker and score. The kick from Ratchford regained Warrington the lead and they would never lose it again.

The referee could have penalised Leeds at the PTB but chose to play an advantage and Warrington were good enough to seize it. In case you're wondering it was Sinfield and in particular Moon who had failed to control the speed of the PTB that led to the try being scored, unfortunately no amount of searching Opta's so called facts will recognise that.

Come on tvoc, you can't put such sensible accurate posts like that on here.

Anyone would think they are on the wrong forum.

There are other things as well, I mentioned it briefly on another thread when statto was analysing Bailey's contribution by reference to Opta. On Saturday Bailey won posession for us four times by diving on a loose ball, winning a penalty, intercepting a pass and forcing a knock on with a strong challenge.

Again, I'm not sure that is recognised in the stats but taking posession from you opponents four times is very positive contribution.

He was one of few players who managed to secure us field position.

Interesting to see Ben Harrison get sucked in a couple of times again, you'd have thought they'd have learnt Grand Final lessons by now.

Unless you can point to a statistic showing this occuring then I won't accept that it did occurr.

No can do, my opinion was solely based on viewing the game in the real world.

Even if I had a stat burp up my sleeve....I'd leave it there.

Soz.

Slowing down the play the ball is one of the most important aspects of the game (as alluded to by TVOC above). Its not mentioned in OPTA either but when its used to defend a player, it is dismissed by many people. Why is that?

I can't speak for "many people" only myself.

I don't necessarily dismiss it but in respect of said "a player" I don't think he does it as much as his supporters claim and I don't think it's enough to make up for his lack of effort in one area that is easily quantifiable by reference to stats, carries.

Slowing the ptb down and missing few tackles is not imo and should not be deemed good enough for a Prop in our 1st choice 17.
I look at the overall picture when reviewing performance and again imo as the Champions team and Club we are then certain players within this squad/team aren't good enough OR offer enough to warrant week in week out selection irrespective of performance.

Slowing the play the ball down is all about tackling technique. Either twisting the player onto his back perferably with legs facing sideways or towards the defending team, or getting into an upwright wrestle with multiple defenders allowing the defence time to set. If you have outright domination of the collision the ref will shout dominant and allow you a few extra seconds of lying on.

I've not kept track of the exact arc of the discussion but this is one area i feel leeds often struggle. They never got a grip on this against warrington. Lying on and messing around at the PTB and just generally f*cking around after losing the collision does not constitute slowing the PTB, you are just testing the refs patience for penalties. This is what many of our forwards wind up doing, JJB is one of the worst for it. Leeds could have been penalised alot more on saturday.

It also seems to be something that leeds either have a grip of, or they don't. If they start the game against saints and they don't have a grip on the ruck it's not something they ever seem to able to turn around during the game, and unless the opposition cough up loads of posession or penalties, they end up consistently on the back foot territory wise throught the game. This is what happened against warrington.

its the second or 3rd man into The tackle which takes a neutral tackle into a defensive win. Krone does well here, as does bailey. If you wrap a man when he's stood up and bring him down slowly onto his back you earn several more seconds than even a dominant hit. Where we go wrong is like you say losing the collision and then trying to get as many seconds messing on the floor. Jjb is by far the worst but others are pretty poor in this area.

It's it enough to justify someone a spot in the team, certainly not, but it adds a lot to the shape of a game