Your response seemed to be that squad rotation couldn't reduce stamina because they're athletes. Or did I misunderstand?

If that was your point then my response was relevant, in that whether you're an athlete or not your fitness has peaks and troughs related to your training and preparation. The fact that they are athletes does not render Fetlar's point stupid. I think the point might be over-simplistic, but I think there probably is some truth in the theory that there's no fitness like match fitness, so playing less matches could reduce your stamina.

If your point was something else, then my response may well not relate to it.

No, you understood the point, just your example had no relevance at all to it then. There is a difference in peaking for a certain point, and missing the odd match in a 8 month season.

You seriously believe that missing a few matches per season through squad rotation will have an effect on the players stamina come the play offs? That is what Fetlar was saying.

Christ god help Leeds then, considering how many mataches have been missed by players with the injuriess. We better not bring back McGuire, JJB, Delaney, and Bailey then. These missed Challenge cup weekends must be a right bugger for our players stamina. But at least Hull must be a shoe in for the Grand final then.

Gotcha in misunderstood posting shocker



McDermott's squad handling may defy conventional wisdom and see some re-thinking in sport and re-writing of the coaching manuals. My belief is that his approach is all about toughness. Leeds players don't get the easy option of a rest every few weeks. They tough it out. They don't get the easy option of dropping down for a confidence boosting run in the lower leagues if they have a bad game. They tough it out until they turn things around. Leeds players might even find themselves playing long minutes without using a sub, and they'll just have to stick to it and tough it out. There is no easy option.

Perhaps it's all co-incidence, but come September and October, when the weather is a little worse and bodies are aching a little more and some players might even be thinking of an upcoming holiday, our team gets a little tougher and more determined than the opposition.

No, not at all. I did say that the point of view was over-simplistic. There are other factors at play. But no relevance at all? Really? You make a point about athletes being exempt from losses of stamina from aspects of their competition and training schedule, and it is not relevant to point out that athletes are as susceptible to that as anyone else?

I wasn't agreeing with Fetlar, but I was disagreeing with your premise for dismissing the idea as stupid "because they're athletes."

I think personally that Fetlar was wrong, but it's a theory with some viability - and it probably depends on how many matches you're missing. There are problems with it relating to other factors - there's also a balance to strike between being match-fit and being fresh. But McGuire's absence, for example, certainly isn't ideal, and match fitness is an issue there.

There is a difference between missing the odd match in an 8 month season and peaking at the right time. On the other hand, there are clearly competing theories among SL coaches (and forumites) on the role of missing matches in peaking at the right time.

Stamina has both a physical and a mental aspect. The edge Leeds possess is a mix of the two and they have reinforced both through McDermott's unusual selection policy. Their physical and mental toughness develops over the season and this might explain the mysterious disparity between our performances in the Cup and in the play offs...

And yes, I think the severity of injuries to key players during the course of the season will seriously hamper our chances this time around.

Spot on.

Strange and interesting fusion of military and sports psychology, I reckon.

Richie in foot in mouth shocker.

What did my response have to do with McDermott and Leeds?

I said it was stupid to say that squad rotation reduces stamina, that was general, as the comment from Fetlar was general, not related to Leeds. It is stupid. If these players miss a week of playing, they are still training all week, and working to a schedule of fitness. Infact injuries, which are not planned for, is going to effect far more.

So as you agree that rest effects stamina, then how is the missing challenge cup weekends going to effect Leeds?

You would probably draw a bit less fire if you were better at differentiating between "I don't agree with this" and "this is stupid."

While I don't entirely subscribe to the "rest reduces stamina" theory, I suspect that the Leeds coaching staff would rather have not had the CC weekends off, and would certainly rather not have had the injuries. But that's where they are so they'll have to deal with it.

The less fire isn't an issue for me. If you believe that resting a player a few matches a season effects their stamina then you are thick as fook, simple as that.

If that said player was also not training, then I will grant you the argument. But the argument was not that, because if you choose to rotate your squad, you do not also say have a week off mate training and all.

Your argument previously, was on your running and getting to a peak condition for a race. That I agreed on. You are not an athlete looked after by sports conditioners. I know very well, that if I go on holiday, I come back and struggle at the gym in comparison to before I went. But I am not an athlete also.

The stamina for these players is built up from the training they receive in the main, and the continuance of that. Not the match its self. Otherwise like I said, the players we have had out now, could not possibly come back for the play offs.

I commented on your post. I wasn't responding to it. The fact that I didn't quote your post should have been a big clue to that. Nor did I say your post had anything to do with McDermott and Leeds. Your post not having anything to do with McDermott and Leeds does not mean McDermott and Leeds cannot be mentioned in this post. In this case I quoted your original post and am responding to it. Notice the difference?

Your response fails to differentiate between not having a game one weekend and being left out of a game that weekend for a rest.

You obviously think it has a transformative benign effect so welcome to my world



Seriously though, it might be worth cutting out the personal insults. Only because they signify to the whole world that you're wrong and it's just a case of finding out in what way.

Is everything in your world view so black and white?

The injured players can do all the training they want, I promise they'll suffer in their first game back. Match fitness is no myth.

But I suppose as long as the world divides neatly into "agree with Gotcha" and "thick as fook" it will be a simple place.

4th it is then.

5th is still possible.

Phew!

So 4th and a trip to hudds then? I guess everyone got what they wanted.

Injured players? So now your talking about long term out and not full training? And I get accused of fog knitting

.

The point was/is, does missing a match in a planned manner (rotation) effect the stamina of players? Just stick to that, that is what I responded to, that is what is stupid to believe it does. It's not difficult.

Err, you brought up the injured players, citing them in an argument about missing matches.

I already agreed that I didn't think rotation of a squad would affect stamina in the way that was described. What I took issue with was your usual presentation of your opinion (which is actually fairly similar to mine on that issue) as "fact" and other opinions as "stupid" when there was some rational basis for the other opinion and a lot of your logic for dismissing it was actually, in my opinion, flawed.

You've also assumed here that "rotation" means "missing a game" which wasn't actually specified in the post you took issue with. It could potentially mean missin more matches than that couldn't it?

So you agree with me then.

I think you jumped in the first place because somehow you were reading it some other way.

Thank you for confirming though you also don't agree that rotation effects stamina. It was a simple statement from Fetlar in the first place, and a simple answer back from me which I stick to. Posters like Richie just get in loved for the sake of doing so, nothing more.

For the avoidance of doubt, let us remind ourselves again as it is on page 2. Fetlar said, squad rotation reduces stamina. I responded don't be stupid their athletes.

I give up.

Squad rotation, inter alia, can affect(*) stamina in both ways, done right it can improve it, done badly it could possibly reduce it.
It's a question of the balance between exercise and rest, just as when training for a running event.

e.g. When a player has been out injured (say with their shoulder or somesuch) but still gets the right kind of exercise, when they come back they will be refreshed but not fully match fit ... a couple of games later they are match fit AND often fresher than their mates.
If they had done no exercise at all for that month or two, their stamina would be way below par.

That the players are athletes is a given, but that fact was unnecessary to the argument and proves nothing either way.

(*) Not effect, different word.

Incorrect, it was very necessary and entirely important to the discussion.

The fact they are athletes, is that they are looked after by professional conditioning teams, which ensures there fitness and stamina at all times.

Compare and contrast to El Diablo comment about his running. He is not an athlete, at least I dont' think so, so he doesn't get access to that professional back up. Therefore not the same scenario.

Both Joel Moon and Mitch Achurch talked about match fitness and needing to get back to it just on Wednesday. They seemed to think they would only get there by playing.

1. I have a coach, paid by my club. I'm not a professional. He is though. But yes, they will get a much higher level of conditioning and coaching. It depends how you define athlete though.

2. Human physiology is what it is. It's fundamentals are not altered by coaching. Like you, and like them, a few weeks off might not overly harm the base fitness, but when you get to the intensity of a competitive environment, we'll all still be blowing out of our a**es first time back. You just can't replicate that in training. It's what match fitness is. Athlete or no athlete.

3. Your point about their coaching doesn't stand if the rest period you're talking about is part of that coaching. All coaches and coaching teams and conditioners are not created equal. And they get it wrong sometimes. Because they're human.


I still agree with you that "resting players reduces stamina" is too simple to be true. However, I certainly think (or know, actually) it's possible to over-rest, so it isn't a stupid idea. I just don't believe that's what Wire have done. And I don't think the simple fact that "they're athletes" has any real bearing on it. Especially when you keep in mind that their competition are also professional athletes, so the base level they're working to is a lot higher than you or I.

I also don't think calling people "fooking stupid" when you don't agree with them is particularly productive and tends to make you look more ignorant than anything else.

Oh, and "having access to professional coaching" is not really the definition of an athlete. I have a friend who has little more coaching access than me, is largely self trained and is reigning women's world 50km champion. She's definitely an athlete.