It will be really interesting to see how the youngsters perform against top quality opposition. This will be a real test of their physical and mental toughness. We must not expect them to match the defence and metres of the likes of the missing JJB and Delaney so the points against stat should continue its recent progress. However on attack we can expect them to show their quality.

This is also a big game for the likes of Clarkson and Kirke who have the experience to step up to the plate and prove they are worthy to remain in the squad.

For us to win IMO we will have to use our attack as our best form of defence.

They would have to go some to make less meters per carry than JJB. Perhaps you meant work rate and carries.

No I meant metres as he has made the second most of any Leeds forward. Remember he has achieved this on top of being our top tackler

So you did mean carries then. And yes I know he is our top tackler, which is why I didn't pick you up on the defence statement.

If I had meant carries I would have stated carries. Our top 2 metre makers are also our top 2 for carries no suprises there. Players can make metres in different ways ... for fullbacks and wingers they get some easy metres while the forwards have to graft to get them. But we still need the forwards to make those hard metres each game.

How we are at the minute, way too soft down the middle. If we lose the ruck early doors it could be a long night.

Clarkson needs a big game.

We do. And also notible that those same two players, are also our top error makers and penalty conceeders. But of course that goes over your head I presume, even though you spoke about defence?

Two players increasing their carries by 3 per game would make the additional yardage that JJB does in a game. Your point said we would miss it, which is correct, but easily sorted by sharing workload. Whether that sorts defence also, I wouldn't give any guarantees on.

He was down as missing 7 tackles against Widnes. Not good enough, especially for someone who only really brings solid defence to the table. As you say, big game for him as he's currently been leapfrogged by Singleton and Moore in squad forward status when others are back fit.

Tonight is more about the youngsters gaining more experience than the result imo.
As a team we can go there with no pressure on us and give the young lads the freedom to express themselves.

What does go right over my head is the guff you keep spouting. For your information the following are our top error makers:
Hall and Sinfield top our error makers with 27 each followed by Mags (20), Watkins (16), Clarkson (15), Ablett (15, Burrow (15) and Moon (13) before we get to JJB in 9th place with 11 errors and JP in 16th place with just 9.

It is to be expected that our top tackling and carrying grafters will feature high in the penalty count with JP (14) Ablett (13), JJB(12), and Sinfield (11) as our top 4. If other players were as committed they too would move up the penalty charts.



So which 2 players will be doing this simple task then? and will they also be stepping up the number of tackles, kick chases and carries at the same time?

As usual you can not see the wood for the trees. This goes along with your previous theories of measuring number of carries for an hooker.

Comparing halfbacks with forwards is ridiculous for errors, considering how many times their hands are on the ball.

The term errors, is just seemingly way above you. Do missed tackles not count as errors?

I maintain what I put above regarding errors.





Did I not say in the post you quoted "Whether that sorts defence also, I wouldn't give any guarantees on"? reason for that. As for players doing that simple task, look at your stats you seem so reliant on them. You don't believe that two players couldn't do another couple of carries per game but you praise one player for doing it alone? Considering all the regular forwards but Bailey average more meters per carry than JJB, wouldn't is suggest it is a lot easier to do than you make out?

I would expect us to line up something like this:

1. Zak Hardaker
2. Ben Jones Bishop
3. Kallum Watkins
4. Joel Moon
5. Ryan Hall
6. Liam Sutcliffe
7. Rob Burrow
8. Richard Moore
9. Paul McShane
10. Jamie Peacock
11. Chris Clarkson
12. Carl Ablett
13. Brad Singleton

14. Mitch Achurch
15. Ian Kirke
16. Jimmy Keinhorst
17. Alex Foster

Gotcha, when you're caught out being wrong, it's best just to admit it.

Point it out, and I'll gladly admit it. I have no worries to do that. But what I said is clear enough and backed up.

I think we do have a chance of doing something if the 'supporting cast' of forwards can step up. We know what Peacock can do and its good to have Ablett back in the forwards and Singleton is performing well. Its the group of Clarkson/Kirke/Achurch/Moore that need to suitably contribute. I'm not sure if Keinhorst & Foster will get much time but hopefully add decent cameos too.

Same 17 as last week i'm guessing to keep the consistency there, with the younger and out of position players being familiar with their roles and the players they are working with.

If we can hold them out the first 15/20 mins and be level or better at half time, Warrington may start to panic a little if they are 'expecting' to win this from the off. If we concede 2/3 early tries, I don't think we'll come from behind to win it.

Rugby League - a simple game made complicated by statisticians and geeks.

It certainly does become difficult to see the point when the trees become planks! Yes missed tackles are also errors, however they are usually recorded separately from the general handling errors. But as you mention it let us look at the missed tackle league:

Ist place goes to Ablett (35), Clarkson (31), Sinfield (29), Kirke (2icon_cool.gif, Delaney (27), Moon (27), JJB (26), Watkins (23), Achurch (23), & JP (23)

For someone so keen to point out the errors of certain players you do seem to make quite a few yourself Gotcha. So you stated JJB & JP were "also our top error makers"......Wrong.

Now you want to include missed tackles and again you could say its another gotcha Gotcha!

If you were to add up the missed tackles, errors and penalties (I know not very scientific) you would get the "Naughty Step League Table" with Sinfield out in front (67) followed by Ablett (63), Clarkson (56), Moon (51) JJB (49) McGuire (47) and JP (45)

NB: I seem to remember that for some time now you have talked down JJB and Delaney and talked up Ablett. But it would seem he's not the messiah but in fact 'he's a very naughty boy'



I think your maths is wrong. JJB I guess makes almost double the carries of the other forwards JP excepted. He must average around 16 carries per match with an average carry of about 6m. Given that the best carrier of the regular forwards (JP excepted) is Kirke (only in MperC) with 7.6m per carry with most being less than 7m per carry. So you need JJB's replacement to make around 95 metres per game on top of making 33 tackles per game, and be first in the kick chase as well....oh and lead the after match singing in the changing rooms.

A bit much to expect of a youngster and a bit beyond some of the benchmen. This could not be done by a couple of players making a couple of extra carries.

Haha, love it

Well good luck to the lads tonight! fingers crossed for a "good" game (read close instead of good)
Im stuck on a night shift so its radio leeds or whatever for me =/

leeds by 4........ gotta be optimistic! i`ll even stick a bet on that!

On phone at Warrington so excuse any spelling. Goog contingent from Leeds.

I think you are so far up yourself and patronising that you really do not know what you are debating.

Go back a step here at what I asked earlier and asked you to confirm. I said they would miss JJB carries and work rate but not his metres, and you said no meters. I further said that if a couple of players took another 3 carries each they would cover JJB metres, and you came out with the above to try and disprove this. Even going to the lengths of 0.6 metres.

Who is replacing JjB? Singleton? JJB makes about 70 to 90 metres a game. Your average bit part forward does 50 to 70 metres a game. So lets say JJB does his top 90 metres and Singleton would do 60 metres. What you are arguing his someone has to make up that extra 30 metres, and I am not arguing against that point.

My point was players taking extra carries to cover it. Take Kirke as an example, 7.6 metres you said per carry. So if he took just 3 extra carries, you would cover 23 metres of that difference just there. Chuck in an extra Moore carry and you will cover your missing 30.

That's how easy it is. It's whether those players are prepared to do it.

I already at the star agreed on missing defence, so what you are stretching I don't know.

Can someone let Burrow kick?

Also, why is Delaney eating (and moaning about) McDonalds when rest of his 'injured' teammates are at the game?

Leeds should be ashamed with how they've played tonight. That last set was amateur to let Warrington drive down 100 m.

This was possibly the worst Warrington performance I have seen in a few years. Leeds blew it, fair and simple.

Young side coming up against that Wire side

That was a superb performance by our boys