It's the fifth tackle play where you apply the pressure. If you win that collision and slow down the PTB then the kicker gets the ball and an advancing defence. He can sit deeper, but that means all his chasers are going to have to be deeper as well, or offside.

Watkins is on a hiding to nothing at the moment. He's been playing inside Golding and now briscoe for the last couple of weeks, and outside Sutcliffe and Achurch. He is our only threat down the whole of that side and teams know that he can't do a lot if you get up and at him.

Watkins clearly lacks confidence and it really didnt help that the first 3 passes to him were awful, he is a player out of form surrounded with no other threats and getting terrible ball.

We are really doing it tough right now, we have young players playing out of position, ones that need taking out of the firing line, and in Briscoe one who isnt really good enough, We can't make the amount of mistakes we made yesterday and we can't give away the amount of penalties we gave away. Some of that will come from getting players back and getting them in their right positions.

I dont think we are far away and look very much like a side who will fall ass backwards in to a win or two and put together some confidence and a run but time is running out.

It has ran out IMO (for this season). Even if we get some of the bodies back they will be rusty and not match fit. How long exactly do you think it should have taken to address a lot of the persistent problems: poor defence, poor control of ruck speed, paucity of attacking ideas near the line, structures etc? With regards to Watkins I did have a lot of sympathy for a long time, but it IS time for him to step up and look to impose himself more. Patience is now thin. As others have said, out of Moon, Keinhorst and Watkins the one least deserving of keeping his centre spot is, unfortunately, Watkins.

Both Keinhorst (who has proven himself to be an uncomplaining model professional) and Lilley do not deserve to lose their first team places.

After a full knee reconstruction I actually think Sutcliffe is building. Other than that I totally agree!

Here's one for ya! My personal opinion is that in a salary cap sport with the emergence of Handley and him looking the real deal I would be looking to move Hall or Briscoe on.

Brough often kicks on the fourth to avoid the pressure. When it is on the fifth our chasers often ARE deeper. They dont worry about chasing down the kick too hard- it's all about keeping the defensive structure and conserving energy. They rely on broughs boot to get them the extra yard or two rather than busting a gut to get there. 10 metres or twenty from the opposition line isn't a big deal to them. They often allow teams to make many more metres than them anyway- it's part of how they play. But having said all that brough needs less time than most to put in a great kick-he's a quick thinker and often avoids any on rushing defence with a step then puts in a kick- it's not often a defensive player puts a finger on him as he's putting in the kick (unless it's a late hit).

...building on full knee reconstruction does not explain his pish poor decision making or inability to take control of the team (compare and contrast with young Lilley).

As you say Handley (like Keinhorst and Lilley) should not now be dropped and maybe it IS time for Hall to be shipped on. Of the two (T.Briscoe and Hall) I think I would prefer to retain Briscoe.

Achurch - 19 tackles and 0 carries

Even Cameron Smith made 3 carries when he came on.

completely agree about Watkins. One pass from sutcliffe was about 70 miles an hours at his head. Other teams know he is the genuine danger and are up on him quickly. He is not getting any of the sympathetic ball from a sinfield short pass. He is also doing a lot of good work in defence. also agree about penalties and basic errors.

But what do we do if one of our wingers gets injured then? the stupidity of the cap writ large.

Saying that im a big fan of Handley and think he can go as far as he wants.

Zero carries? That's shocking. He should not play again for Leeds. I've said before Baldwinson should be in selected even if that means putting Singleton in second row. He has a bit of pace and certainly can't do any worse than Achurch

Zero carries.

ZERO CARRIES!

Anyone think last years championship player of the year, playing out of position, would have contributed less?

In case of injury we keep developing the kids in our system. I just think I'm my honest opinion Handley is too good to be a back when I speculate our 2 and 5 will be on good money for wingers.

I just think with the cap Handley is good enough to free up space by losing one of Briscoe or Hall

I think you are letting your views on Hardaker cloud your judgement of Golding. Any full back worth his salt would have done better with the high kicks last night. As for quoting statistics regarding Golding and Hardaker, it's pretty pointless. Hardaker is one of the our biggest metre makers week on week, and is always near the top for carries, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Golding's stats or performances. If Hardaker is fit he is a shoe in at full back, he has been one of our best players this season, and has carried the team in certain games. Last weeks injury he received was one that has been coming for a long time, he's had plenty of killer passes when he's been asked to carry the ball from our line, but last week's took the biscuit. Until our forwards become fitter, more aggressive coming away from our line, and the team in general takes on as much responsibility as Hardaker, anyone playing at full back is going to have a real job on his hands. Golding copped for some pearlers from Brough last night, but let's not start trying to make excuses for him by clouding the issue and referencing Hardaker who wasn't even playing.

But we dont have a young player the quality of Handley and expecting to bring one through every couple of years is crazy.

Was pretty disappointed with Singleton as it goes last night.

That is disgusting, he should be nowhere near a Leeds shirt for the rest of the year. Kirke even managed more than that back in the day and he only used to do 5 minute peacock breaks.

Maybe ...but Achurch never playing again for Leeds ought to be a priority now

I think Hicks had him in his crosshairs from minute one, possibly expecting he'd need to keep a close eye on him. A couple of the penalties were no worse than things other people got away with during the game.

Like Ablett, I think he's one of those players that referees pay particular attention to during games.

I'd agree he's had a poor start to the year, I thought he'd really kick on and look at cementing a starting spot this year.

God help us going forward then ...with us having the 2 of them as probably our 1st choice second row pair for the next couple of seasons

Part of a deep malaise? It does make you wonder what Baldwinson has to do to get his opportunity with crap and seemingly out of form forwards still getting selected ahead of him

He's had plenty of early ball at different times this season, and done nothing with it. He had a couple of opportunities one on one with Brough last night, and was easily tackled without even threatening to beat a man.

At the moment he's at best poor, at worst a liability with ball in hand. Even defensively, while he's making tackles he missed a clear interception and 90 metre run to the line last night by letting the ball slip through his hands.

He deserves every single bit of the criticism he's getting.

Thought so. Never hit the ball up once and in his first spell at least, he was third man in the tackle every time. No way he was first in 19 times - more like 2-3. His effort at marker was also non existent. That first spell when Hudds were all over us we were playing with 4 forwards. Galloway, Garbutt, JJB and Ferres.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

Looking at the team sheet last night I do wonder if one of the centres had gotten injured (or back 3 with Watkins moving to their position) who would've filled in at centre? Could it be why Smith got in ahead of Baldwinson for last night? Could Smith have potentially been lined up as filling in at centre IF we needed to do that at some point last night. Who else could've done? Ferres or Walters? Too big/lack of speed to cover there now surely?

For all the injuries we've had this year in the backs, pivots and second row.....our props barring Cuthbertson have stayed injury free.