I notice the pound appears to be gaining strength - which is very odd.

The good times are coming, yippee

They have probably factored in hope for a "soft" Brexit, also expectations of an interest rise in May.

Only another fifteen cents to make up, to get to pre-referendum levels!

Currency rise and falls in relation to economic situations. That’s the advantage for us in not being in the euro. Unlike Greece and Italy who are locked into the euro . The main benificary of the euro is Germany ,ideally if they still had the Deutschmark it would make the German exports more expensive. Hopefully that would give the Southern Europe nations a bit more scope for profitable trade. The debts the USA are running up may well result in the dollar taking a plunge sooner or later.

All true, however, the drop in the value of Sterling against both the Euro and the Dollar, were directly attributable to the referendum result.
The pound dropped around 15% as soon as the result started to become clear and whilst it may regain some value or, indeed, lose further against other currencies, the drop was absolutely a direct result of voting to leave.
Of course, the currency traders around the world may all be wrong but, it was a pretty clear message of what they thought at the time.
Apart from the blatant optimism of a few hard line "leave" campaigners, consensus does seem to have us all (in the UK) being just a little worse off following Brexit and most of them say "it's worth it" to have "control".
As time passes, it will all be consigned to history and blurred by future events and who knows, the UK may even prosper.
The main point being, that, nobody will know how it would have been. so, everyone wins. Utopia.

my opinion on this shifts, almost daily, I don't see it as "party political", we are making a total mess of it. As you say, only Germany benefits, an utter farce.

Those well-known Socialists the Institute for Fiscal Studies have consistently said there is no economic argument for Brexit. It is purely an issue of immigration.

So the 10's of billions that "we" were going to save (by leaving) was a lie and we're not going to be putting an extra £350,000,000 into the NHS every week ?

Should I ring Trading Standards or The Advertising Standards Authority ?

If only we could report ALL former and current governments foe not keeping manifesto promises!

Correct, that’s the nature of politics. An election took place one side won the day, another side lost. Unlike Russia and several other fruit case socialist countries we believe and practice democracy. As for the success of brexit it will be several years before any conclusion can be drawn. Office rents are still rising in London, not the sign of a weakening economy. Unemployment is extremely low and people from other countries are still arriving and finding work. I note that in Sweden and Germany the influx of large numbers of economic migrants who don’t share our common beliefs are causing major problems .
In the next ten years most of these people will have German passports. Hopefully by then we will have regained control of our borders. So we won’t be overwhelmed by these people. Perhaps if the Labour Party had done more for the working man in this country instead of pandering to the metropolitan elite ,brexit would not have occurred.

That may well be the case. Seems a good enough reason to leave the eu.

Brexit was always about 3 things:
1. Our financial contribution to the EU and whether we could invest this money better at home
2. Who writes the laws
3. Who controls our borders

The Macro-economics of leaving was never high up on the list of issues - at the moment seems as much of an EU issue as it does a UK one.

Quite correct, if only the EU had not embarked on this crazy doctrine of political union we would not be in this situation.
The EU should have remained as per it’s original structure ,a free trade association of countries. If our lily liveried politicians had some courage we could create a marvellous trading base with the commonwealth countries. Many of these countries are rich in minerals. They are ripe for investment and most speak the English language.

Russia socialist? It is obscene, unrestrained capitalism.


Really? I must tell my family to come home as they have not raised any concerns. Perhaps you can supply evidence I can send them?

And how many of the commonwealth countries would be on "our side".
After Britain raped and plundered these countries it's personal gain, just how many of them want to give further help.

You really need to move with the times.

Britannia no longer rules the waves and most of the commonwealth nations are more than happy to "self govern" probably glad to see the back of being part of "the empire".

China is already investing heavily in some of the African countries and we certainly wont be at the front of the queue.

Russia unrestrained capitalism, I presume you are joking. Supply of evidence, bbc news night this week discussing no go areas. Swedish ambulance medic saying certain areas they have to have a police presence to attend calls.
Germany New Year’s Eve celebrations marred by sexual assaults by immigrant youths. All reported by bbc and broad sheet newspapers. I presume you keep up with current affairs and have not been marooned on a desert island . Unless you think the bbc is faking all this.

China investing in these countries, that’s my point we should be doing that. China will certainly require a return on its investment. Nothing wrong with that, or would you class that as raping and pillaging. Possibly you may describe our building the civil service and legal system in India as raping and pillaging.Not certain about Britannia rules the waves comes into it, nor the reference to self government. I merely said we should increase our efforts to trade with thes countries. I presume the next thing you will come up is the Emily Thornberry (lady nugee) idea to apologise to these countries. Note I have respectfully made note of her well earned title. You must always acknowledge the socialist trend of sneering at the upper class establishment, then immediately accepting a peerage. Step forward Prescott ,mandelson, kinnock and take a bow.

Did the second world war prevent Germany selling product into Poland/France/Austria etc?

debating with wrencat is akin to debating with my pussy cat, it makes a lot of noise, licks itself and then vomits!

I work for a very large German company, have around 40 German colleagues in the UK and travel there very regularly. Pretty much every German colleague here in the UK is disgusted with Merkel. The problem is (and I've mentioned this before), that they are too stubborn and/or afraid of the unknown to vote anyone else in. My closest German friend here actually said, "I despise Merkel and she's ruining our country...but I will probably vote for her as I don't know who else to vote for. I'm too German in that way." Plenty of them have even said they would like out of the EU.

I personally know of several British/multinational companies who have instructed their female staff not to travel by train in Germany. They are ordered to fly or hire a car. Several of those companies have seen attacks and/or harassment on female workers by immigrants around the rail network.

Rapidly increasing crime rates are being directly attributed to rising immigrant populations in many areas, as are sexual attacks (the New Year's Eve attacks being the most infamous). Towns that invited immigrants in enormous numbers are seeing huge problems. A massive influx of predominantly young men with hugely different cultural and religious values is turning bad, as anyone with half a brain could have foreseen.

Anyone who thinks immigrants aren't bringing massive problems to Germany are as deluded as the Swedish authorities, who think that by fiddling the numbers the problems will go away. More utterly ridiculous blinkered liberal thinking which has got Europe into this irreversible quagmire.

Ever heard of the term 'mutually beneficial'? They may well see a great opportunity to trade with a major world economy once the EU Customs Blockade has dropped.

Have a look at the tariffs the EU slapped on imported oranges for an example of what happens when outsiders get a bit too competitive. South Africa was the main target of that particular act of EU protectionism - a Commonwealth nation, no less.




The only ones who bring up 'The British Empire' are those who have run out of arguments. It should be another internet law alongside Godwin's.

God Save The Queen.

I'll ignore the second part of your post.

However, there remains one hell of a large elephant in the room and it's been there from day 1 of the whole Brexit process.
Although there may well be pockets of produce / goods that become cheaper, once we are away from the shackles of the EU, and there will certainly be benefits for food items and clothing etc.
The issue arises where the UK tries to obtain certain products /services and tariff free rates and then use these to their advantage when trying to sell goods / services back into the EU (our largest export market).
The EU will, as they always have, take steps to protect "their own" and IF the UK was to gain substantial advantage, we would find new tariffs applied to said products preventing the UK form undercutting the EU competitors.

Also, the incumbent suppliers of the products that we are looking to offer, would also take steps to protect their market.

Of course there may be opportunities for innovative new products but, surely, those opportunities were already available to us.

Some of the older generation, many of whom voted "leave", remind us that "back in the day", the world wanted to buy British and that our products were the best in the world (which I can agree with). However, the rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed those standards.

I'm sorry but, I believe that many of the new opportunities that have been sold to the populous are over inflated dreams and not the genuine article but, if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true.

The economic holes in the original Brexit argument are there now for all to see and it becomes ever clearer that, this (Brexit) was more to do with immigration than it ever was about prosperity.

Little Englanders won the day, unless there is a second referendum

Why? It's patently true. No-one one here has expressed a yearning for the Empire days. The only person to dredge it up is you and other Remainers. Extricating ourselves from the shackles of the EU is hardly nostalgia for Empire, it's more a lucky escape.


Which is all well and good, but the question posed concerned trade between the UK and Commonwealth nations.

We all know there will be adjustments to be made. Yes, it's likely there will be some tariffs between the EU and UK. I think it's unlikely any tariffs will be particularly damaging to either side in part due to our enormous economic integration with EU nations and our mutual desire for healthy trade. Furthermore, any punitive tariffs the EU puts in place, we can match. The fact is, in reality every nation in the EU seeks the best for their economy and their population. That means working together despite the EU's history of protectionism.

But I see we're making progress. It may have only been part of the reason for the leave vote, but you finally understand the depth of feeling against uncontrolled mass immigration, and that to remove ourselves from that ridiculous ideal it's necessary to take a short-term economic hit.

That said, according to [url=https://www.bloomberg.com/professional/blog/brexit-bill-worth-paying-many-times/Bloomberg[/url, that hit isn't as any near bad as many on the Remainer side are professing, certainly in terms of the Brexit bill.

The interesting aspect here is the constant moving of the goal posts by the "vote leave" brigade.

You've gone from us being better off and having £350 million per week for the NHS and having no "divorce bill", to admitting that we will be slightly worse off financially and accepting that there will indeed be a divorce bill.

There was never any doubt that the mass migration issue needed dealing with and still does and you would do well to find any comment to the contrary from me.

As perhaps a more outward looking person that many of the "leave" mob, I dont have any real issue with being part of The EU.
Although it makes great headlines in the Daily Mail, being part of a larger group (the EU) should be seen as a positive.
In the UK we already have local government and central government, which so many of the population have very little chance of changing and another layer on top of this isnt really a problem, unless you feel threatened by them.

And whilst the freedom of movement is causing major issues at present, due to the economic inequalities between some of the member nations, we also lose our own right to move freely in the opposite direction and as with all these issues, things move in cycles and very few Brit's were complaining as "we" "invaded" parts of Spain.

Anyway, clear a spot in your diary for the second referendum and be sure to choose wisely.

Nope, I've been saying the same thing since before the referendum. A short term hit for long term gain. There was always going to be divorce bill, what we've been landed with actually isn't too bad. Anyone with a brain could see that, but it wouldn't have made a good campaign leaflet.

BTW, the bus didn't say £350M directly into the NHS. But "if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true".




Another layer simply isn't necessary. Especially when those ultimately running the ship in Brussels are unelected and non-removable, don't listen and have an ideology they are determined to force on the rest of us.

You're right, the EU SHOULD be seen as a positive. Unfortunately the EU have cocked the whole thing up by choosing to force their ideals on an increasingly reluctant and wary Europe (actually that was the plan from the beginning). That's where it becomes a negative.


At worst we might need to complete a visa application online. I doubt even that will happen. Reciprocal agreements will be put in place for travel. Working & living likewise.

FoM is causing major issues which will not go away any time soon. So is the migration crisis. If the rest of Europe are unwilling to do anything about it we're better off out of the whole mess.


Won't happen.

All this blustering about 'meaningful votes' and this idiotic customs union vote is meaningless rhetoric from politicians who can't accept defeat or are raising their profile. Any move to place us back under EU rules would see a backlash of biblical proportions.