It was never going to be an easy negotiation, how could it be ?
The fundamental issue of one of the "main" countries within the EU wanting out, was always going to be difficult and with the referendum result being particularly close and the "split" not being along party political lines, nothing that has happens should be a surprise to anyone, apart from the actual leave vote which surprised plenty.
Again, I just dont see how or why The UK will be allowed to leave and end up with a "better" deal than the countries who remain in the EU. It would be a fatal blow the the whole EU concept.
So, we continue with the dance, hoping for a good deal and trying to remain positive, whilst knowing that our relationship with the EU27 wont ever be quite as good as is once was.
We have promises of new trade deals with The US and other nations but, apart from possibly reducing the cost on certain items, we are still likely to be slightly worse off than we were before.
Remember, IF the UK was such a great nation with so much to offer in these "new markets", why weren't we involved previously and IF we do find ourselves in a position to supply some products and services into new sectors, what do we think the incumbent suppliers will do ?
Will they roll over and let us "take" their business or, will they fight just a little bit harder to protect their "own" markets ?
It's not rocket science, just simple business.

Were the UK in a position to negotiate a separate trade deal whilst still in the EU or were they duty bound to allow the EU commission to negotiate on their behalf. We can see how successful they have been in delivering on these deals - have they yet agreed a deal with the US?

It is in everyone's interest to have a good deal - the EU countries still want to deal here. Yes they don't want other countries to leave but whatever deal they strike cannot be so punitive that it is unworkable. Taking away the revenues derived by some EU countries from sales to the UK would hurt especially the bigger players: Germany, France etc. especially the global brands.

The new markets is about growth as the living standards of say China and India improve - if this happens this will open up opportunities that don't currently exist. Is the population of India c3 times the size of the EU let alone China - as you say just simple business economics.

I fully understand the relative population and market size of India/china and no doubt there may be some opportunities from those two huge population masses.
However, the benefit of being within a larger "bargaining group" is the element of protection that can be given to certain industries (through the EU Tariff system etc) and also giving a stronger negotiating position when trying to secure their trade deals etc.

You are right about standards of living improving in both China and India, although, there will still be millions of people there in abject poverty and you quite rightly point to possible increased trade opportunities.
However, there is also the risk of them (India/China) further undermining the UK manufacturing sector as they too will want a deal thet benefits themselves, it's never a one way street.
Finally, if/when we have negotiated a host of new trade deals, where do you suppose we will want to sell our wares ? The EU would be an obvious place to start, as it's on the doorstep but, there is absolutely no doubt that IF the UK was to benefit from substantially better trade deals with certain nations and try to "undercut" our "friends" in the EU27, they would take action to protect themselves and the UK would no doubt find themselves in the same position as China / India (albeit to a lesser extent) and some of our goods would begin to attract higher levies.

Finally, on the hot topic of Russia, I find it both alarming and funny that, at the first sign of "trouble" from Russia.
Liam Fox, a staunch Brexitier, instantly wants help from the EU nations, slightly 2 faced ??

Have the EU a good track record of negotiating trade deals? how are the negotiations going with the Americans? Has size actually made any impact on deals the EU is able to extract?

Given our manufacturing is more specialist/niche I think the idea that China/India will undercut the like of JCB/Rolls Royce/London Taxi Co. etc is mute. It is very likely that they will sell more to us than we sell to them so it would be odd if they started to mess around with tariffs as this would be counter-productive because as you quite rightly point out its never a one way street.

On your last point given the trade deficit between the UK and the EU is approximately £60bn surely they would be cutting their nose off to spite their face by trying to protect their own market.

The trade deficit is the UK vs 27 other nations, therefore not quite as black and white as the "leavers" try to claim and IF the alternative to a deal which puts the UK in a win/win is to cut their noses off, then expect a pile of 27 noses.
They can not afford the EU to crumble so, first and foremost, they will protect what remains of the EU and if a deal can still be done but, dont expect any advantage to the UK, it would be political suicide and although Mrs May nearly followed Cameron down this route, dont expect the same from The EU.

I don't think any reasonable person expected a 'better' deal than the EU27. The goal in reality has always been to secure a deal as close to that as possible. As we've seen, negotiations have been tough but I'm with Backwoodsman, things are going pretty much as expected.

And we haven't been into other markets for the simple reason we've been restricted by the EU customs union (barrier). How are we supposed to enter markets when we're not allowed to?

I think that the Americans would call it "starting behind the 8 ball" but, on the basis that there will be incumbent suppliers in these "new" countries. It will be bloody difficult to suddenly open up these new opportunities.
Of course, if you product/service is of good quality and service is as good/better than the next guy, you may secure some business and the company that works hardest is usually more successful that the others.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that, despite the bullish optimism of people like Farage & Co, there simply isnt an "untapped" pool of customers just waiting to buy British.

The trade deficit is an issue for the EU being 27 nations makes it harder as they risk upsetting a few countries to protect the very powerful ones. The deal needs to be as is not better not worse and that is a win/win. If you make it worse for the UK your are making it a lot worse for the 27. Because we aren't going to have a one-sided deal that suits the 27 and disadvantages us.

The elephant in the room is the money - the EU really need it and therein lies their achilles heel.

It doesn't seem to stop Germany - their exports to China for example, are 3 times larger than ours; how are they managing that, if EU members aren't "allowed" to?

The EU currently has trade talks open which, when concluded, would give us access to 2/3 of the world market by value; and right now, the EU and its various trade deals accounts for 60% of UK trade - when the deals that are currently under negotiation are signed, that will increase to 88%. And all of those trade deals include good *and* services. (taken from the CBI)

This either/or scenario is absolute insanity; it's absolutely right that the EC should be working harder to make trade agreements with the rest of the world, but to imagine that we'll get special treatment from any of these countries as a lone wolf after leaving the EU is pure fantasy. India has already sent a pretty clear message - to get anything like the generous terms the hapless Liam Fox wanted from them, they would expect a significantly more liberal approach to visas for students and workers - otherwise known in some quarters, as free movement of people.

China is the EU's second biggest trading partner after the US. There are currently 26 bi-lateral trading agreements between the EU countries & China. An EU-China agreement will replace all these. But we will still get a better deal?

The point is that we dont know and currently, each different product imported into the EU rom "outside" carries a different tarif number and as such attracts a certain level of duty (tax) and of course these have taken years and years to establish, again, little mention of this in the "of course we can set up trade deals with "X", so often spouted before, during and after the referendum.

Of course "The Unknown" will be better than what we had before, because we will have control

We were promised our beautiful blue passports back.

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/22/contract-to-print-uk-passports-abroad-will-save-120mThen This![/url

I am OUTRAGED!

What next no £350m a week for our beloved N.H.S?

At least Mr Farage is still doing his bit, I saw him on the news yesterday replenishing the fishing stock in the Thames, you show'em Nige.

The same Mr Farage who, as an MEP, attended 1 of a possible 42 meetings of the Fisheries Committee...

How is Lord ◇I'll never accept a peerage) Presctott getting on?

socialist lunatic

Blair took us into a false war
Brown sold the gold
Scargill killed the mines
Heck, even Churchil swapped sides when it suited

they all had the same ideals, and no morals

Let the intelligent people do their job, starting with terminating comrade Corbyn's propogamda

Without wanting to derail the thread, stop talking nonsense.

I literally have no idea how to respond to this.

Try responding to him. His posting is pretty much correct. Just to help you labour closed more mines than the tories.

He won't, he's not even "kryboard warrior", like so many he's a keyboard coward. Got many fingers to point but no anwsers.

I genuinely don't know what the relevance is; the original point was about Mr Farage and his ill-advised weighing in on the fisheries issue, by dumping a load of rotting fish into the Thames. I commented that it's a shame he didn't take that issue more seriously when he was actually a member of the relevant EU committee and could have done something constructive - but he attended only 1 of a possible 42 meetings - statement of fact.

What that has to do with the slightly deranged PCCollinson (who has previously expressed his view that I should be executed on live TV) and his list of unrelated whataboutery, I have no idea; hence, I choose not to reply.

To your point - you may have seen that quote as part of the recent attempts to disinfect the Thatcher years, but it's simply not true; and it has bugger all to do with Nigel Farage, fish or even Brexit.

I presume you're referring to the Wilson government back in the sixties?

Yes there was a huge cull, forty odd percent of the workforce, but that percentage doubled under the Thatcher government, with the nice caveat of the miners being described as "The Enemy Within".

This comment dovetails nicely into the present Brexit debate, with the High Court judges described as "Enemies of the People".

Not certain what thatcher has to do with current affairs. Unfortunately I am in my sixties so am well versed in the the thatcher scargill years. Working in the construction industry at that time was certainly interesting and very rewarding. If I told you of some of stunts the unions pulled you wouldn’t believe me. The country was on the verge of merging into a banana republic until she came along.

If you're not anti-thatcher then you're wrong. Don't be bringing up facts...

The Sin Bin aka The Socialist Workwr

I have worked in the construction industry for 40 years. I could wax lyrical about the greed, rip-offs, deaths, injuries, corruption, illegal blacklisting, sackings, exploitation, moral turpitude due to the desire for excessive profit.

Dont forget planning !!

Seriously though, without the subjects mentioned in your post, there would be no need for any of the Unions.

You can add weekends off, holidays with pay, maternity/paternity pay, sick pay, end discrimination, child labour, training, minimum wage as well. All things the capitalist media told us would destroy UK industry & all things a big proportion would happily weaken.