For clarity, around 72% are Christian, of which around 45% are Catholic.

Not that it makes any difference. Lebron is trying to stoke the oft-quoted urban tale of stoopid racist white Leavers thinking Brexit would put an end to ALL immigration - i.e. from the Middle East and Indian sub-continent. I suspect his little facebook anecdote never actually happened though, or it was possibly some other liberal trying to be witty.

But yes, another quality post from the ever-reliable Lebron. Still waiting for him to justify his claim that more Tory than Labour MPs voted for the Iraq war in 2003, which, given Labour's majority at the time, would have been a miracle.

A funny old thing statistics.

The percentage of Labour M.P's who voted against the war - 36%

The percentage of Tory M.P's who voted against the war - 10%

Anyhow, it's nice to see May has managed to appease everyone in her latest speech, thank goodness we've come through the choppy waters, plain sailing from here...

And? Remind me again which PM brought the case for the war in Iraq, and 254 MPs of which party voted for the war?



Boasting how many Labour MPs voted against the war is not a good argument when so many more voted FOR it.

I guess at least Comrade Cob is a 'pacifist' and wouldn't have led us into such an illogical, destructive and hugely destabilising conflict. Not that the country would have any money for a war if Cob was in No.10.




That single sentence tells me you haven't listened to the speech. Or if you have, you weren't paying attention.

My apologies. I meant a higher proportion of Tory mps than labour

It was a Tory war

Regards

King James

Pathetic.

You do realise if the Tories had voted proportionally exactly the same as Labour, the vote would still have gone through by some margin?

It was a Bliar and Labour war. He brought it, his party carried it through Parliament.

Well lets try another scenario, if the Tories had been in power, how many would have voted against going to war.



I tend to swerve her speeches & wait for the pundits to summarise. But by the sound of it, both J.R-M & the Soubry gang seem pleased with the mood music, is that not the case?

It’s 2018 dude. Putting a laughing smiley doesn’t give your argument credence. Laughing smileys were all the rage in 2007. A higher percentage of tories voted for it than labour. So whilst that buffoon Blair started the ball rolling, the tories rubbed their hands wiTh glee when voting YES

Regards

King James

Who knows? Perhaps a Tory PM would have refused to go to war altogether? We'll never know. It's hypothetical and pointless. What we do know is one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair and the Labour Party happily took us into the war. One of several reasons I'll never vote Labour again.


So I was correct, you haven't listened to it. Yet you comment on it.

Anyone who bases their views purely on pundits really doesn't deserve the time of day.

It's not supposed to give any credence. It's purely to indicate my amusement at you.



245 Labour MPs, 146 Tories. Nothing will ever change that fact. Suck it up.

What a pointless argument; Tony Blair let millions of Labour voters down, and is a war criminal - and all MP's who voted with him are complicit, regardless of party affiliation.

Fast forward to the present day - one Mr J Corbyn, with a flawless history of voting against interventionist wars, will be the next PM; so Cronus can rest easy that we won't be doing that again. And Brexit is still a pig in a poke - Mrs May's speech (which I did watch) is full of jingoistic, wishful cakeism, the majority of which she knows will never happen; it was yet another exercise in appeasing the 62 hard-line Brextremists in her own party, who seem intent on driving us of a cliff.

Unfortunately you are correct regarding corbyn. Due to an inept Tory party, jezza will be the next prime minister, that would be a disaster for this country. But under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario.
Unlike some of the political class in this country, who are determined to overturn the democratic vote of leaving the European Union.

You make an interesting point "under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario"

It is a shame that those who lost the vote cannot put that behind and contribute positively to achieving the best result for the country. There appears to be some vanity that suggests if they belly-ache enough they will get their way.

The border in Ireland should not be an issue - freight is moved across borders all over the world with electronic customs clearance and without the need for permanent border patrols.

Using your bench mark on democracy and accepting democratic decisions in Parliament, why is it that anyone feels the need to bring up the Iraq war, something voted on by our esteemed MP's.

Surely, on an open forum, we SHOULD be discussing what may be right, or wrong, with the events of the day.
Ultimately, it would be one hell of a risk for Parliament not to uphold the will of the people.

However, as negotiations move along, it's certainly worth Parliament having to ratify a deal prior to it's implementation and if the result is so far removed from the idea that was "sold", it may also be right to go to the electorate, either in a General Election of a second referendum.

With how things are beginning to play out and with May hinting at continued payments to the EU and concessions towards the European Parliament, it could well be the "vote leave" side that aren't happy with the deal.

Oh, the irony.

Another interesting trope developed by Leavers - that we need to 'get behind' Brexit and 'make a success of it.' What does that look like exactly? And if I (and the increasing numbers of people who think it's economic suicide) suddenly start to send out positive Brexit vibes, will that be enough to fend off the inevitable decline in our economic outlook? If enough people start to believe that you actually *can* have your cake and eat it, will that make it true?

Brexitiers are a bit like the pyramid sales "experts" of the 90's.
Always telling people that things were "brilliant" or "great", unfortunately, they all had to get proper jobs in the end, although, like now, there are just a few, at the top of the pile, who did quite well out of the dodgy dealings.
But, it was never any good for the masses, who were just a little worse off at the end.

As hypothetical & pointless as it is, if you're trying to tell me the Tories wouldn't have done the same thing, you really are deluding yourself.



Just because I'm selective on who I'm prepared to listen to, I don't deserve the time of day!

I don't base my views purely on pundits, I just choose not to listen to the Tory puppet.

So was I incorrect when I stated both sides of the Tory divide seem fairly happy with May's stance, which seems a tad strange don't you think, or am I too contemptible to deserve a response?

Indeed.
The Yanks took us to war and unfortunately, if the same scenario were to come around in future, we would follow them again, it's the price to pay for being their puppet and outside the EU, we will need them as an ally more than ever.
Blair was doing precisely what Bush wanted, nothing more, nothing less and yes, the Tories would have done the same.
What would happen with Corbyn in charge, who knows but, even he may fall into line, unless we find a new super power as our "best mate".

And God, apparently.

So, in or out of the EU, we follow the Yanks into war.

Hypothetical whataboutery will never change the fact Blair and Labour took us into that war. Blame diversion simply does not work in this case.


Selective = agenda bias and blinkered input. If you publicly pass judgement on someone but gleefully admit you can't haven't even listened to them, your views can be happily dismissed. I listen to Comrade Cob and others I disagree with simply to understand all sides.

Except Diane Abbott.




Actually, I have no idea what Soubry or JRM said on the speech, given those are the names you mentioned. I suspect Soubry whinged and trotted out her usual soundbites and JRM probably complained that we need a harder line. And they're still more united than Labour.



Nevertheless, it's the same wide spectrum of views we've been hearing from politicians and the press across the board since the referendum - most of which are largely irrelevant unless they're part of the team negotiating with the EU.

On a forum like this yes why not

As for the Iraq war I am unsure as why this has raised its ugly head - shameful events that is best viewed as the monumental error it was.

What I find hard to understand is that given 80% of all MPs don't seem to want nor did want Brexit how it was they failed to convince the electorate that Brexit was such a bad idea? The remain side planted plenty of doomsday scenarios that will never come to pass. Perhaps the remainers over egged the downside more than the leavers pushed the upsides to such an extent that normal voters simply didn't believe them.

The EU have shown their true colours in the negotiations is this really a bunch of individuals that you want to control your future?

Not too sure what you mean by this ?
If you mean that they are negotiating hard and making it difficult for the UK to leave, surely this is exactly what they should be doing to protect/help the EU27.
They would be failing in their duties IF they made it easy for the UK to leave, after all, it was not their decision.

"Divorce" has been used quite frequently to describe us leaving and on the basis that "they" haven't done anything wrong, they should be taking "us" for all we have.
Remember, we are the ones walking out so," they get to keep the house" and they would be more than happy for us to stay.

It would be pure lunacy on their part to make it easy.
Perhaps they are better at negotiating that we are, they certainly seem to have the deck stacked in their favour. Mind you, apart from the blind optimists, anyone could see this is how it would be.

No body is saying it should be easy - but what you don't want to do is burn your bridges i.e. a deal is only a good deal if it works for both parties. What you can't do is say we want all the money and you give all the concessions, well you can but its not credible.

I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want.

Our issue is we are divided so easy to negotiate against - we have weak leadership - send in some senior commercial people guarantee the deal will look a lot different.

Quote ="Sal Paradise" I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want. '" Not too sure we'd get away with that one https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... vorce-bill

Quote ="Sal Paradise" I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want. '" Not too sure we'd get away with that one https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... vorce-bill

They don't control our future; and I would rather be in the club shaping the rules, than have misanthropic little Englanders like Johnson, Gove and Rees-Mogg given even more control over my future.