But unless Wayne is referring to me as 'Mr God', he has no right to expect me to address him as Mr Smith. Just because I happen to be tupping his daughter doesn't mean I ought to behave deferentially towards him. And if he considers a smile, a handshake and a 'nice to meet you' impolite just because I use his first name, he's not the sort of person whose opinion of me I'd particularly care about.



I disagree. Different eras, perhaps, but I'd consider it no more a 'formal setting' than I would meeting any of my girlfriend's friends, or anyone else outside of work. I'm dating Charlene, not Wayne.



Again, we'll have to agree to differ. I'd still address him as Mr Ferguson if I chose to address him formally, as I refuse to recognise the honours system in any way, shape or form.



If someone said, "Lord Sugar, this is Rock God" and he responded with "Hello, Rock", then he'd get a hearty "Hello, Alan" in return. If he said, "Hello Mr God", then I'd use "Mr Sugar". I wouldn't call him Sir or Lord for the reasons stated above.



That wasn't the point I was making (as I think you know). Let me rephrase: Why should the beardy stain get 'Sir Alan' (as was) or 'Lord Sugar', when the nurse gets Nurse Higginbottom or, away from work Mrs Higginbottom?

Not a question of "rights", though but politeness.

No, none of thse things are impolite, but he may reasonably consider use of his first name impolite. You'e already made the point that you don't give a fook, so we got that.


But he doesn't KNOW that, does he. As he doesn't know you. So only you would know why you were seemingly being a prick.


But equally pointless, as he doesn't KNOW your reasons for doing so.


No, I replied to the point I thought you were making.

Because using the CORRECT title is not "better" or "worse" but just "correct"!

It seemed like a strange thing to do straight afterwards to me too, being a professional tennis player is all about earning money to feed the entourage that will travel with you, Ivan Lendl won't come cheap for starters, most of that prize money won't be Murrays to give away.

But if he's going to be so impolite as to address me by my first name, he can't believe me to be impolite if I return the favour, can he?



I'm not sure he 'reasonably' could. In fact, I'm sure he 'reasonably' could not. If someone is polite to you in all other respects (Hello, nice to meet you, handshake, whatever), I'd say it's bloody [iun[/ireasonable to think that they were impolite because they use your first name.



A person might not KNOW my reasons for not addressing them as Sir Whatever, but it wouldn't take a genius to work it out if I was polite in all other respects.



I disagree. I don't think it's 'correct' that a person is arbitrarily awarded an inflated title based (usually) on a politician's/head of state's whim, and that we should all have to use that title when equally (more?) deserving people have to get by on plain old Mr or Mrs.

Are you serious? Unless the girlfriend introduced you by surname, how would he know it? And it shouldn't need me to tell you that expecting the father of the girl to call you "Mr. " is in normal convention just plain silly. It would be perfectly normal, expected and appropriate to use your first name. Anyway I think you actually know tgis, and are just being awkward for the sake of it.


Look, we aren;t discussing any other respects, just the (plainly) inappropriate unbidden use of the first name. Stick to the point. If you can.


No, they couldn't work it out. Because they have no additional data. It could indeed just be that you are being a prick.


But you do NOT HAVE to, ffs, why don't you get that simple point? We are discussing polite behaviour, and rudeness. Nobody ever suggested compulsion. Also silly is the suggestion that honours are "arbitrary". And I don't (at all) argue the system is, or even could be, perfect, but what did they do - pick Bradley Wiggins and Jessica Ennis with a pin out of the phone book?

Anal retentiveness!



And yes, all Scottish male born citizens should be called "Sir" by their English counterparts.

We'll skirt around that one ...

Here we go again.

We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine.

As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example.



I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point. You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.



But they DO have additional data. If they see me make eye contact, smile and say something like, "Good to meet you too, Alan, and may I say how excellent I found your fax/emailer", then they have loads of other data to decide whether or not I am a polite person. It wouldn't be a massive leap of logic for them to decide that, as I'd been so polite in every other conceivable way, that I wasn't omitting the 'Lord/Sir' part of the address out of simple rudeness.



Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'.



It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do. Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. I have the greatest respect for what she and the likes of Wiggins have achieved, but I still wouldn't call him 'Sir Bradley' if we were ever to meet.

I'd say that she is VERY well paid for running, skipping and jumping a bit.

There aren't too many people in the world who can earn enough money in a couple of years to last them for the whole of their life by doing something that they probably would have done for free as a hobby anyway.

Don't forget throwing!

Quote ="Rock God X"We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine. '" What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But these days what with Twitter, FB and the rest conventions have certainly changed a lot, and amongst a very large (but still minority) they seem to claim a right to be bloody rude, indeed in many cases there's clearly a need to butt in and make rude and nasty remarks. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that. Quote ="Rock God X"As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example. '" Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either? Quote ="Rock God X"I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. '" Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment". Quote ="Rock God X" As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point.'" Hmm. Let's see, then. Quote ="Rock God X sets up a total Straw Man when he" You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" '" Have you got enough straw? Quote ="Rock God X" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.'" You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything. If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. You might have a point in there struggling to get out. If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite. Quote ="Rock God X" Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'. '" Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right? Quote ="Rock God X" It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do.'" And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you! Quote ="Rock God X" Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. '" Name them.

Quote ="Rock God X"We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine. '" What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But these days what with Twitter, FB and the rest conventions have certainly changed a lot, and amongst a very large (but still minority) they seem to claim a right to be bloody rude, indeed in many cases there's clearly a need to butt in and make rude and nasty remarks. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that. Quote ="Rock God X"As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example. '" Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either? Quote ="Rock God X"I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. '" Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment". Quote ="Rock God X" As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point.'" Hmm. Let's see, then. Quote ="Rock God X sets up a total Straw Man when he" You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" '" Have you got enough straw? Quote ="Rock God X" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.'" You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything. If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. You might have a point in there struggling to get out. If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite. Quote ="Rock God X" Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'. '" Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right? Quote ="Rock God X" It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do.'" And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you! Quote ="Rock God X" Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. '" Name them.

Incidentally, while "Nice to meet you" appears on the surface to be polite, there's a whole raft of society still that will judge you with an inner-raised eyebrow if you greet them with it. "How do you do" is still safest and correct.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that. Quote Obviously I don't, or I would not have made a claim contrary to that. Quote Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?'" Oops? Really? We're sinking to that, are we? I addressed the matter of convention because you raised it. I notice you didn't answer the point I made, though. Much easier to post a silly 'oops', eh? Quote icon_lol.gif Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".'" Hardly. It was the 'plainly' part I utterly rejected. Quote Hmm. Let's see, then. Have you got enough straw? '" It's hardly a straw man to point out that one can be polite whilst using a first name just as easily as one can be impolite using a formal title. Quote You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything. If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. '" I would suggest that it is you, my friend, who has become confused. I wasn't talking about 'politeness credits' or any other such irrelevant guff. I'm taking about the initial impression a person might give upon meeting someone for the first time. If they are courteous and pleasant but use the first name, that is unlikely to bother most people. Those people who are bothered by an otherwise pleasant individual using their first name are almost certainly massive s. Quote You might have a point in there struggling to get out.'" You might have a non-condescending git in there. It's not struggling very hard to get out, though. Quote If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.'" See above. Quote Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?'" Not really. Quote And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!'" 'Even for you'? Was this you 'being funny' again? Or just needlessly combative? Quote Name them. '" '" '" You want me to name every outstanding nurse, teacher, doctor, scientist, fireman etc in the country? Might be a struggle, that.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that. Quote Obviously I don't, or I would not have made a claim contrary to that. Quote Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?'" Oops? Really? We're sinking to that, are we? I addressed the matter of convention because you raised it. I notice you didn't answer the point I made, though. Much easier to post a silly 'oops', eh? Quote icon_lol.gif Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".'" Hardly. It was the 'plainly' part I utterly rejected. Quote Hmm. Let's see, then. Have you got enough straw? '" It's hardly a straw man to point out that one can be polite whilst using a first name just as easily as one can be impolite using a formal title. Quote You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything. If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. '" I would suggest that it is you, my friend, who has become confused. I wasn't talking about 'politeness credits' or any other such irrelevant guff. I'm taking about the initial impression a person might give upon meeting someone for the first time. If they are courteous and pleasant but use the first name, that is unlikely to bother most people. Those people who are bothered by an otherwise pleasant individual using their first name are almost certainly massive s. Quote You might have a point in there struggling to get out.'" You might have a non-condescending git in there. It's not struggling very hard to get out, though. Quote If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.'" See above. Quote Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?'" Not really. Quote And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!'" 'Even for you'? Was this you 'being funny' again? Or just needlessly combative? Quote Name them. '" '" '" You want me to name every outstanding nurse, teacher, doctor, scientist, fireman etc in the country? Might be a struggle, that.

Bloody phone won't let me edit the quote ballsup.

Have I accidentally wandered into a Jane Austen novel, or something?

'
It wasn't "Even for you", it was "Even for you!". Note the jaunty, jokey exclamation mark. If I'd made such a nuts comment then when it was pointed out to me, I'd say, "Yep, on second thoughts, that was pretty nuts". It was in fact rubbish, and I was ribbing you about it. If you wrongly mistook it for being "combative", I apologise; I didn't realise you were so sensitive. If I actually thought you were basically nuts, I can assure you I wouldn't have discussions with you.



No, I want you to name the ones who are just as brilliant as Jessica Ennis, who haven't been honoured, which is what you claimed.

Saving a life, perhaps?

What do you mean?

Hmm. The tone of your last post in general seemed a little combative. Perhaps I misjudged.



Firefighters (to take but one example) risk their lives on a daily basis to save the lives of others. Can I name them all? No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

First, firefighters have my utmost admiration. But the statement that they "risk their lives on a daily basis" is melodramatic hyperbole. Much of their work is mundane. But where there is a major incident, they have strict rules and procedures to minimise personal risk. They don't charge gung-ho into burning buildings without a thought for safety, and would likely face disciplinaries if they did. For just one thing, if they broke safety rules and got into trouble, other colleagues would be put at unnecessary risk trying to get them out.

That said, are you saying that each and every firefighter is as brilliant as Jessica Ennis? If you are resorting to that sort of argument then you're talking about something completely different from me.
I am sure - as in all walks of life - there are exceptional people, and there are "normal" people who perform exceptionally well, and I know many of them are honoured, in a variety of ways. Including firefighters.
A number of firefighters received awards in this year’s Queen’s Birthday Honours list. Those honoured include:

CBE

Christie Smith, Former head of Police and Fire Reform Division, Scottish Government, for services to Emergency Services Reform in Scotland. (North Berwick, East Lothian)

OBE

Rita Marie Dexter, Deputy commissioner, London Fire Brigade, for services to Local Government and to the Fire and Rescue Service in London. (Teddington, Middlesex)

John Francis Duffy, Secretary, Fire Brigade Union Scotland, for services to the Fire and Rescue Service in Scotland. (Forfar, Angus)

MBE

Rosanna Briggs, Deputy Head of Service and Deputy County Emergency Planning Officer, Essex County Fire and Rescue Service, for services to Civil Protection. (Peverel, Essex)

Doreen Ann Engall, Vice-Chair, Humberside Fire Authority, for services to Local Government.

David James King, Retained Firefighter South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, for charitable services and for services to the community in Porthcawl, Bridgend. (Porthcawl, Bridgend)

Michael Ian Larking, Senior Executive Officer, Fire Safety Division, Department for Communities and Local Government, for services to Fire Awareness and Prevention. (Orpington, Kent)

Paul Charles Settle, General Secretary The Firefighters Memorial Trust, for public and charitable services. (Ashford, Kent)

Keith Stringer, Station Manager, Helston Fire Station, Cornwall Fire and Rescue Service, for services to the community and to Young People in Cornwall. (Helston, Cornwall)

Clive Williams, Station Manager, St. Just Fire Station, Cornwall Fire and Rescue Service, for services to the Fire and Rescue Service and to the local community. (Penzance, Cornwall)

British Empire Medal

Robert John Morris, Watch Commander, Redditch Fire Station, for services to the community in Worcestershire. (Redditch, Worcestershire)

Queen's Fire Service Medal

Martyn Emberson, Chief Fire Officer, Northamptonshire Fire and Rescue Service.

Elizabeth Hampson, Group manager, North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service.

Roy Andrew Wilsher OBE, Chief Fire Officer, Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service.

Stewart Edgar, former Chief Fire Officer, Highlands and Islands Fire and Rescue Service.

Anthony (Tony) Linney, Retained Watch Manager, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (Fife Area)

Paul Souden, Retained Crew Manager, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (Strathclyde Area)

Martin Joyce, Assistant Group Commander, Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service.


But I think that you probably have more in mind "exceptional bravery" awards, and these are not, as I'd presume most people know, dealt with in the honours system, but usually recognised more directly, e.g
[url=http://www.itv.com/news/central/story/2012-03-27/firefighters-awarded-medals/Queen's Gallantry Medal[/url

It's a truth universally acknowledged that neither you nor FA is going to back down ... and the rest us are following the relationship avidly whilst wondering which one of you is going to wander by in a soaking wet shirt.

I've never knowingly met RG, but my clear impression is that there's about as much chance of him chucking a pint away as there is of me doing it.