So it is that you don't like foreigners then.

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point, is it.

Shush now, let the grown ups talk.

If...and it's a huge IF...the EU sees the reality of the growing dissatisfaction within many member states (let's see if they accuse other members of 'acting like children'!), and the blindly stubborn Germanics at the helm have a miraculous change of heart and agree to reform some of the 'pillars' - then the UK could consider rejoining.

In the meantime we'll be in a stronger and better place within a decade at most. As a snapshot, the Economist published this article [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringHarrogate offers a glimpse of life when migrants leave[/url and tried their best to angle it negatively.

Exactly what many of us predicted: rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace. Lower end wages have risen by 9%. Oh and look, businesses aren't going to the wall - they're adapting, some paying teenagers above minimum wage. Hopefully public services are less busy.

How terrible.

See this is the problem, people such as yourself make vaguely xenophobic statements and then get extremely defensive when someone questions them which means we can't ever have a realistic debate about this stuff.

Let's see what you actually wrote, you talked about the economic impact, social impact and demand on infrastructure cause by immigration. We can cross off the economic argument straight away because numerous studies have shown that EU migrants have a positive net economic contribution, you also said you don't care if they're working so I would guess that's not high on your list of priorities. Demand on infrastructure is a total non-argument because a larger population should in theory mean more workers in every sector, if that isn't happening it's a problem with the system rather than an issue of 'too many people'. And in fact the reality if you ever go to a hospital or doctors surgery is the immigrants are almost always the ones treating people rather than being treated. Without immigrantion the NHS would likely fall apart because our services are grossly underfunded and not enough is being done to train British healthcare workers. So yeah, we can scratch that argument too.

Then we have the 'social cost'. Which as far as I can tell is another way of saying that you don't like immigrants, and that's your only real argument here that doesn't fall down under the slightest bit of scrutiny. So yeah, based on this I conclude that you are a xenophobe who doesn't like immigrants, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. If I'm misinterpreting your posts then please correct me.

I love how some people are still deluded enough to think that this is anything other than a show power grab by the extreme right and they think they personally will still be better off out of the EU. It's time to wake up, Brexit could be successful if done properly and with care, but we have the exact opposite of that happening right now and the worst offenders to democracy have become the self titled Brexit dreamteam

No, the problem is the left immediately make inflammatory comments such as 'you don't like foreigners'. Throw schoolyard insults, get them in return.

Oh and if you simply read this thread you will see a 'realistic' debate over many months. Wrong again.


No, you can't cross it off. Mass uncontrolled immigration in reality brings in massive numbers of low earners. Low wages are squeezed, housing stock is squeezed, infrastructure is squeezed. So yes the Treasury might see a few more sheckles but plenty of people feel the squeeze in many ways. That most immigrants work and pay tax is lovely, but there is far more at play than that. Too many people, too quickly.


Nope, you can't. The reason being infrastructure takes years, sometimes decades to plan and build. Net migration each year is insane at around 250,000 (around 50% of our total population growth). Are there more GPs, houses, hospital beds, school places, roads, etc immediately in place to account for this growth? No, there aren't. Once again: too many, too quickly.

A question I ask all Remainers is this: if you're a local council, how can you forecast how many school places, hospital beds, GPs, houses, etc you need and plan effectively for the future - if you have no frigging idea how many people are going to arrive? You can't.

Yes, the NHS would struggle if every immigrant left. But that's not going to happen. For a start, only around 12% of NHS staff are non-British and the majority of those are non-EU. That being said, if the NHS had planned and recruited effectively we would never have relied on overseas labour to any degree.

Over the last decade massive areas of our towns and cities have changed beyond recognition due to immigration. EU and non-EU. Of course the left don't care about the upheaval this brings - in fact anyone who makes any complaint is mechanically accused of xenophobia (oh, look at what you said). I still fail to understand why the left disregard the concerns of so many Britons and...oh yes I remember now, diversity is oh so wonderful and Jeremy Corbyn.



Honestly, at this stage only the most blinkered leftist loon still insists uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. Oh it's a nice cosy concept if movement of people is reasonably equal...but it's not. Eastern and Southern European (and many non-EU) immigrants are flooding to the UK, France, the Germanic regions and Scandinavia (in part due to the failure of the Euro). Opening the borders between such economically unequal countries was always a feckin stupid idea.

Sensible, controlled immigration is a wholly positive thing for any country. Unfortunately that's not what we have right now.

Does anyone actually believe that we will end up with the Brexit deal, thay May & Co seem to be dreaming about ?

Free trade with the EU
No hard border in Ireland
Bespoke customs union
Free to establish our own trade deals with the rest of the world

The Tories appear to be on the brink of civil war and Labour, god help us.

I'm beginning to wonder if Labour are deliberately playing the long game. If they come out now and oppose Brexit altogether, there'll be a backlash - but as it is now becoming abundantly clear that the 35 or so hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party are in fantasy land in terms of the 'deal' they keep banging on about, and as more and more information emerges showing that Brexit will damage the economy for years to come, one would imagine that all but the daft racists who voted Leave to get rid of Polish people, will see the folly of the whole thing. Some polls already suggest that a majority of people, given the opportunity, would vote Remain.

Maybe JC is letting it play out - the Tories are tearing themselves apart and Mrs May is enduring death by a thousand cuts; and public opinion is slowly shifting - there will be a sweet spot when it's not political suicide to block it - hopefully through a vote in parliament on the final deal.

In fairness, Labour are also split on the EU and Corbyn has been extremely shy about telling us what he thinks, cherry picking which aspects of "leave" that suit his agenda.
With such a fragile parliamentary majority, May has been walking a tightrope but, at some point she has to make it to he other side and this will inevitably cause her to fall both metaphorically and politically.
Every chance of another general election, right in the midst of EU negotiations.
It looked a mess at the outset and looks no clearer now and all of our futures rest with the "strong and stable" leadership of the country.

As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.

Quote ="wrencat1873"As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.'" Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

Quote ="wrencat1873"As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.'" Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

Whether it's deal or no deal the Tories will remain split. The idea that a referendum would "settle this issue once and for all" is proven to be complete baloney.

Split parties don't usually win elections. Labour is keeping quiet because they too are split but will end up picking up the pieces and a situation far worse than 2010 with public services in ruins, country even more in debt and operating at a trading handicap in comparison with our competitors.

I remain of the view that at this moment in time, there is no meaningful political gain in coming out as directly opposing Brexit; that would engender a massive campaign from the right wing MSM, and the resulting dog whistle reaction from those people who seem to agree that having any kind of political view that doesn't align with their own, makes them a 'traitor' or an 'enemy of the people.'

I'm relatively relaxed about Labour's position at the moment - the Tories are by any measure ballsing up the negotiations, and their leader is on a knife-edge in terms of any kind of longevity; if there's one thing the Tories do well, it's ruthlessly kill off a weak leader - as can be seen by JRM's sinister cabal of 35 or so MP's, who have formed a party within a party - they're not far off a leadership challenge with those kind of numbers, and with the Minister for the 18th Century the hot favourite to take over, I'm content that would make the Tories unelectable for a number of years to come.

I think there's plenty more to play out before the so-called transition period is over, and as has been pointed out many times by the man who drafted it, A50 can be revoked at any time. Meanwhile, Labour's take on the NHS, social care, privatisation, homelessness, inequality etc is gaining popular support - there might still be a chance to salvage something from this mess.

Interesting watching Stephen Fry on The Last Leg on Friday night. He summed it up pretty well - if you're a Conservative party leader, the enemy isn't sitting opposite you, they're sitting behind you.

If the ground would open up and swallow her, May would be more than relieved. My big question... Why is her hubby always hanging around like a bad smell?

Of course we're not going to get everything we would want in a perfect world. As I've said since the beginning - a deal will be reached that is reasonably good for all concerned. We'll probably see some trade tariffs but anything punitive would also damage the EU. This is precisely why the terms 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit are utterly meaningless: both sides simply want the best they can agree and the deal will be whatever it ends up being.

We're leaving the customs union - this has been made clear - the EU's stance has always been that any customs union means ceding to EU rules and that's what we're moving away from. There's a slim chance some bespoke union could be agreed but I think it's unlikely given the EU's dogged insistence on retaining power.

The only ones making a massive fuss of every single syllable uttered by every single Tory says are the press. People within every party have differing views, always have, always will. Look at Labour if you want true bitter division and confusion (Momentum anyone?) - I'm not even sure most Labour MPs know what line they're supposed to be following. Fact is, it doesn't really matter what Bojo or Hammond or anyone else says - Davis (and his team) and May are the voices that matter and despite the daily doom-mongering of the press, things are progressing.

For me the only true sticking point is the border with Eire and oil be fecked if I can figure out how they're gonna sort it. Some form of soft border is inevitable I suspect, but whether that's at the NI/Eire border, or the NI or even Eire sea/air borders I don't know. The rest will be thrashed out and agreed in due course.

I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.

Quote ="Cronus" I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.'" Talk of rising wages, post Brexit, is an extremely interesting thought, when pretty much all of the "models" indicated the exact opposite and more job opportunities is laughable. IF the economy is likely to be squeezed and again, most indicators seem to suggest this, exactly where are these opportunities come from ? As regards " some teenagers being paid above minimum wage", this already happens in certain sectors, it will have rock all to do with being out of the EU. Again, our ruling party have seemed to revel in austerity cuts, something which is embedded within their DNA and there will be no loosening of the purse strings just because we have left the EU. Wages will rise in a strong vibrant economy and despite our "record employment" numbers, our economy is not strong (or, stable) and will be less so, post Brexit. IIRC, even you suggested this would be a price worth paying to rid ourselves of the faceless EU bureaucrats. THe article is certainly an interesting snap shot of Northern life, a town where house prices are somewhat higher than other parts of Yorkshire and generally having a more aged population and I would suggest this is not representative of other Northern towns, never mind a fair representation of what may be coming our way. Feeling like mystic meg, the BBC have this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 Harrogate may be loving their over 50's all white population and paying its few young people a relatively decent wage but, Harrogate isn't even representative of North Yorkshire, never mind the rest of the country.

Quote ="Cronus" I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.'" Talk of rising wages, post Brexit, is an extremely interesting thought, when pretty much all of the "models" indicated the exact opposite and more job opportunities is laughable. IF the economy is likely to be squeezed and again, most indicators seem to suggest this, exactly where are these opportunities come from ? As regards " some teenagers being paid above minimum wage", this already happens in certain sectors, it will have rock all to do with being out of the EU. Again, our ruling party have seemed to revel in austerity cuts, something which is embedded within their DNA and there will be no loosening of the purse strings just because we have left the EU. Wages will rise in a strong vibrant economy and despite our "record employment" numbers, our economy is not strong (or, stable) and will be less so, post Brexit. IIRC, even you suggested this would be a price worth paying to rid ourselves of the faceless EU bureaucrats. THe article is certainly an interesting snap shot of Northern life, a town where house prices are somewhat higher than other parts of Yorkshire and generally having a more aged population and I would suggest this is not representative of other Northern towns, never mind a fair representation of what may be coming our way. Feeling like mystic meg, the BBC have this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 Harrogate may be loving their over 50's all white population and paying its few young people a relatively decent wage but, Harrogate isn't even representative of North Yorkshire, never mind the rest of the country.

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/27/parts-of-uk-that-voted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-findsIt looks like those areas who voted for a new dawn will be getting their reward[/url

Indeed and with out "London centric" government, they are sure to balance any economic help into the areas most in need.
Maybe project fear had an element of truth in their speil ?

To repeat an earlier question... At what point will the riots start?

Who will they blame then?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The Kaiser Chiefs have been predicting this for some time now.
It's not a riot that we need, it's a revolution, that will bring about a much fairer distribution of wealth.

Mike Betts, Chief exec of the CHARITY Mobility is getting £1.7 million pa.
£1.7 million is pretty excessive for any chief exec but, to run a charity, is fecking scandalous.

Where on earth did this become acceptable.

Kind of what I was hinting at.

I've been predicting it's been on its way for a few years now. My mates always used to laugh it off, now they're not so sure.

There's a reason millionaires live in gated properties, there's a reason multi-millionaires are building panic rooms and underground accommodation, there's a reason multi-billionaires are living on their own islands, and there's a reason the government are unable to commit to what to do about Brexit.

What's the weather like on Fantasy Island?

Thankyou to all you brexiteers. I just got less than 1.1 for my Euros for my holiday. I guess its a small price to pay to get the foreginers out of our country eh

Regards

King James