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| Quote ="PAUL M"I take your points but too many times Washy and Horne had to go it alone as they had zero options. Yes Long would have organised them better but Horne never has or will be an organiser and it was Washy's first game. The forwards did not even stand deep or look like they were going to make a run.
The defeat is the team's fault not Washy's or Horne's.'"
Horne IMO should know at least the basic stuff, he has a voice and should use it. He doesn't have to do complex stuff just a bit of talking telling them to stand deeper and who is going to be the dummy runner.
Its the pivots jobs to tell the team to go deeper and assign dummy runners, Horne has played a lot of games and with some great players. He should know more by now.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"I take your points but too many times Washy and Horne had to go it alone as they had zero options. Yes Long would have organised them better but Horne never has or will be an organiser and it was Washy's first game. The forwards did not even stand deep or look like they were going to make a run.
The defeat is the team's fault not Washy's or Horne's.'"
You're putting way too much responsibility on the forwards and I think you're overestimating how much play is 'off-the-cuff'.
Pretty much every play should be called well in advance, especially when in the opposition's 20. And, as evidenced by the first couple of games, the forwards will run the right lines and run them fairly well when they get the call. It's not up to them to make a speculative run and potentially mess up an already set up play. So either they collectively switched off and decided to ignore the calls from the halves for the game or, as is more likely, they didn't receive much in the way of instruction.
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| All of this makes you wonder at what point the coaching staff knew Long was going to be missing.
With the injury being a tight hamstring plus what Agar has said since the match suggests his absence was known long before weekend and was kept quiet.
This Friday, for the Harlequins match it is already known that Long is probably not playing. Therefore Agar/Moore need to decide now who is playing half back and who is calling the moves.
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| Quote ="pmarrow"Horne IMO should know at least the basic stuff, he has a voice and should use it. He doesn't have to do complex stuff just a bit of talking telling them to stand deeper and who is going to be the dummy runner.
Its the pivots jobs to tell the team to go deeper and assign dummy runners, Horne has played a lot of games and with some great players. He should know more by now.'"
The thing with Horne is not what he does or doesn't know, it's that he just doesn't have the personality to organise or direct the side around the pitch. He never has had, and he never will have. It's just not in him and it's something that you can't teach. This is why he's fine when someone else is doing the organising and he can concentrate on his own performance, but struggles like mad when he's expected to direct others.
The really annoying thing about Sunday is that we've known about this for ages, and it was confirmed beyond any doubt in 2007 when he had to take over from Cooke. The lad just isn't a Scrum Half, so why Agar decided to give him another go in a role he simply will not ever be able to fulfil is, frankly, beyond me.
Add in the fact that he clearly isn't fit and you have the recipe for the disaster that duly occurred.
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| Quote ="Kosh"The thing with Horne is not what he does or doesn't know, it's that he just doesn't have the personality to organise or direct the side around the pitch. He never has had, and he never will have. It's just not in him and it's something that you can't teach. This is why he's fine when someone else is doing the organising and he can concentrate on his own performance, but struggles like mad when he's expected to direct others.
The really annoying thing about Sunday is that we've known about this for ages, and it was confirmed beyond any doubt in 2007 when he had to take over from Cooke. The lad just isn't a Scrum Half, so why Agar decided to give him another go in a role he simply will not ever be able to fulfil is, frankly, beyond me.
Add in the fact that he clearly isn't fit and you have the recipe for the disaster that duly occurred.'"
I think one problwm Agar had was who else to play at SH. Tansey is the only other option to play 7 but that would have meant making several changes and maybe he wanted to avoid that like most fans wanted to avoid it all week in the run up to the game.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"I think one problwm Agar had was who else to play at SH. Tansey is the only other option to play 7 but that would have meant making several changes and maybe he wanted to avoid that like most fans wanted to avoid it all week in the run up to the game.'"
I understand that it was a difficult situation, but TBH that's part of what he gets paid to do - make difficult choices. Falling back on a solution that didn't work in 2007 and 2009 was just lazy/cowardly/overcautious - take your pick. Not good coaching IMO.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"I think one problwm Agar had was who else to play at SH. Tansey is the only other option to play 7 but that would have meant making several changes and maybe he wanted to avoid that like most fans wanted to avoid it all week in the run up to the game.'"
Think you may be right there, i would surmise that this was a situation he had hoped would not happen for a wee while yet so the momentum wasnt halted!!
I would donate a testicle that Berro will be SH against quins!! moving The FB would be suicide
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| Quote ="Kosh"I understand that it was a difficult situation, but TBH that's part of what he gets paid to do - make difficult choices. Falling back on a solution that didn't work in 2007 and 2009 was just lazy/cowardly/overcautious - take your pick. Not good coaching IMO.'"
Very true but the same fans who are moaning also named a similar team to what was picked as they didn't liek the idea of moving so many players around for one position and upsetting a winning team. It's easy to see why Agar made that call.
Fwiw I think he will go with the same again on the halves, they never lost us the game, our poor attitude towards the game did. Long would not have stopped the forward allowing offload after offload and would not have stopped the amount of penalties we gave away either.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"Very true but the same fans who are moaning also named a similar team to what was picked as they didn't liek the idea of moving so many players around for one position and upsetting a winning team. It's easy to see why Agar made that call.
Fwiw I think he will go with the same again on the halves, they never lost us the game, our poor attitude towards the game did. Long would not have stopped the forward allowing offload after offload and would not have stopped the amount of penalties we gave away either.'"
I know what you mean Paul but I want my halves to win us the game, not just 'not lose it'. Which Witt did more or less single handedly for them. You are right - there were lots of areas at fault but it needed a creative player to take it by the scruff of the neck and start putting people with the right attitude in the right places on the field.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"Very true but the same fans who are moaning also named a similar team to what was picked as they didn't liek the idea of moving so many players around for one position and upsetting a winning team. It's easy to see why Agar made that call.
Fwiw I think he will go with the same again on the halves, they never lost us the game, our poor attitude towards the game did. Long would not have stopped the forward allowing offload after offload and would not have stopped the amount of penalties we gave away either.'"
They never won us the game either, we have a massive pack whose job it is to drive the ball, Sunday produced the same as last season 5 drives & a kick and we lost the games, we reverted back to last season..The h/backs are the crux of the team as Long has proved and have the ability to lead the big pack around the field and create some play.Horne & Washy never produced it last season and for some bizarre reason Agar believed they maybe could this year, poor coaching decision.
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| Quote ="GODS UNDERTAKER"I would donate a testicle that Berro will be SH against quins!!'"
Go steady pal. You only had one left the last time we had a count up!
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"I know what you mean Paul but I want my halves to win us the game, not just 'not lose it'. Which Witt did more or less single handedly for them. You are right - there were lots of areas at fault but it needed a creative player to take it by the scruff of the neck and start putting people with the right attitude in the right places on the field.'"
I am with you, had Long played then I feel we would have scored more than just the 1 try in the second half. The thing is Horne was not fully fit and it was Washbrook's first run out. Add to that the fact that neither of them are organisers then it's easy to see why it didn't work.
If I were picking this weks side I would pick Tansey at 7, just because he has the balls/personality to make calls and push the big forwards around. That would allow Horne to concentrate on playing his game.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"If I were picking this weks side I would pick Tansey at 7, just because he has the balls/personality to make calls and push the big forwards around. That would allow Horne to concentrate on playing his game.'"
I agree with you Horne had done OK in the first two games (and in his testimonial) and as such should be given another go on Friday. However Tansey must play 7 to organise as you rightly say.
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| There was several chances that we could have won the game but some players were not brave enough to take the chances ..There was 2 in the corner the player should have dived but tried to play save and was pushed into touch not once twice
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| Quote ="PAUL M"I think one problwm Agar had was who else to play at SH. Tansey is the only other option to play 7 but that would have meant making several changes and maybe he wanted to avoid that like most fans wanted to avoid it all week in the run up to the game.'"
all very well but when you consider we are only in round 3 that should not be a problem .
when it was raised at the fans forum what plan b was the answear was we are covered .well looks like we are not . waiting with baited breath what his plan c is
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"I agree with you Horne had done OK in the first two games (and in his testimonial) and as such should be given another go on Friday. However Tansey must play 7 to organise as you rightly say.'"
He was taken off in during his testimonial he was falling off a lot of tackles.
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| Quote ="PAUL M"If I were picking this weks side I would pick Tansey at 7, just because [uhe has the balls/personality[/u to make calls and push the big forwards around.'"
Agreed. Did you see him setting our goal line defence vs Saints? At one point he grabbed hold of O'Meley and physically pushed him into the right spot. Not many would have the bottle to do that.
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| Quote ="Mrs Barista"Agreed. Did you see him setting our goal line defence vs Saints? At one point he grabbed hold of O'Meley and physically pushed him into the right spot. Not many would have the bottle to do that.
'"
Must be a concern then that if Tansey is moved to half back that his replacement at full back may not have the confidence to marshall the defensive line in the same manner. Could just be shifting your problem to another area.
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| The two tries in Briscoes corner were the main worry for me, think i'm right, but was'nt their winger unopposed? i'm sure Quins and Orr will target that wing!!!!
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| Quote ="R.B.A"Must be a concern then that if Tansey is moved to half back that his replacement at full back may not have the confidence to marshall the defensive line in the same manner. Could just be shifting your problem to another area.'"
Whiting has covered f/back a few times and looked solid.
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| Quote ="berrigans bitch"Whiting has covered f/back a few times and looked solid.'"
Whiting is a quality player but if you move him from centre to full back then you will have to move Hall or Briscoe into the centres and bring another winger into the side.
Seems a lot of changes to make for the sake of covering one position.
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| Calderwood is back fit though RBA and he would go to wing with Hall taking centre. I would leave Tansey at FB personally though.
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| Quote ="hullbg"Calderwood is back fit though RBA and he would go to wing with Hall taking centre. I would leave Tansey at FB personally though.'"
Normally I wouldn't advocate moving the team around, but we need some organisation in the halves. Whiting (or Horne if fit) will do an adequate job at FB.
Did Tansey play SH much at Leeds?
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| Quote ="Action Man"
Did Tansey play SH much at Leeds?'"
With Burrow in the team, what do you think?
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| Quote ="Action Man"Normally I wouldn't advocate moving the team around, but we need some organisation in the halves. Whiting (or Horne if fit) will do an adequate job at FB.
Did Tansey play SH much at Leeds?'"
In the couple of season I watched him at Leeds he was mainly used off the bench to cover Diskin at 9. Any injuries at 1,6 or 7 and he was also straight in. He probably played more at 7 than 6. Very difficult for him to oust Webb, McGuire or Burrow though.
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