All points that were poor last season and still do not appear to have been rectified hench why we are still a very poor side.

For me we have enough in the players we have (regardless of whether they are Agars team or not thats just an excuse) to be competing with the teams in 3rd to 8th. The fact is we have a coach who is not up to the job or able to get much out of these players. None of last seasons failing seem to have been addressed at all. Next season I honestly can not see much changing whilst under Agar & Sharps tenure.

I don't think people are saying that Paul...i would be happy with us being in that position...the problem i have (and maybe others to) is that Agar hasn't given me any reason to suggest we will be in that position next year.

He has been in charge a season and a half (by end of the year) and he hasn't achieved anything of any note and incidents / comments like Friday alienate Agar even further from fans like myself.

I am so concerned as to what he can give us next year.

I applaud your optimism Paul, and I'll be happy to say I was wrong if that turns out to be the case, but there is nothing about Agar that makes me feel he has it in him to be a top SL Head Coach.

[url=http://www.sporthull.co.uk/rugby_league/hull_fc/news/displayarticle.php?ID=13357In Fact, a few weeks at Widnes is just what Hall needed, is there a clue in the article?[/url

I really cannot see what is controversial about the fans reaction to the Celtic try. I clapped the Celtic players, not because I wanted them to win, but because it seemed like an ideal opportunity to express my disgust and disappointment, at yet another shocking performance.

If Celtic had scored in the first couple of minutes and got the same reaction, then that would have been a tad ott imo. The fact of the matter is though, that we had sat through a truly disgraceful and unacceptable 50 mins of rugby, where the vast majority of the team had again shown very little effort or commitment, despite us been told how things would be different.

As a paying customer, I see it as a duty to let the players and coaching staff know that the current level of performances is not acceptable in anyway, shape or form. I think, the fans reaction on Friday night is far better than some of the individual name calling and abuse that often happens.

If Friday night makes the players realise that it is a privilege, and not a right to pull on the black & white shirt, then the fans will have achieved something that Agar has so far failed to do.

[url=http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/sport/wolves/wolvesnews/4501766.Smith_bemoans_basic_errors/?ref=rssExactly what that Smith bloke is wondering this week (you know the one we'd have here in a 'heartbeat' who has a much better squad than us).[/url

Much better squad?, does he?

You've got to wonder what Agar said in his interview for the job.

"Yes i'm really excited about the idea of becoming first team coach, but obviously I can't work with any of this lot so we'll have to have another season and a half of dross while I sit back and wait for contracts to run out. Also, I can't seem to get any performance out of young players, so i'll be shipping them out on loan if they don't perform, and i'll be buying in a load of geriactrics who've hopefully already been coached at the highest level and can maybe teach me how to do it."

"How much do you want?"

"Errrr... Not much?"

"You're hired! What shall we do first?"

"Get that Radford's contract extended before he gets poached by Saints or Leeds!"

Have to disagree with that. When you factor in the loss of Carvell, the non-arrival of Crocker, and the general diabolical crapness of Thorman I think we'd be doing well to be in the lower reaches of the 8 at best.

Agar has some problems as a coach, but he is also trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And if the rumours of our salary cap spend are anything like accurate then he's trying to do it with around 2/3rds of the cash of most other coaches.

My main problems with him lie with his unprofessionalism, technical deficiencies, and seeming inability to get the best out of his limited resources rather than our league position as such.

Well I guess that is a matter of opinion. But I would say categorically yes.

It's difficult to argue otherwise TBH. Wire have superior players to ours in many positions, and their pack in particular is far better than ours.

I dont think there is a great deal of difference between the 2 squads but Warrington are better in the most important areas of the field. Morley and carvell to lay the platform and Briers pulling the strings, erratic though he can be.

Player like the Andersons, Hick, bridge, Riley are no better then their Hull equivalent IMO.

Far better coached though.

In terms of ability, or application?

Ours SHOULD be a match for almost anyone, ifonly they could be bothered!

IMO in terms of ability. Their application varies somewhat, as evidenced at the weekend.

I think that the squad we have, without serious injury problems, is good for scraping into the playoffs AT BEST. It lacks quality in too many crucial areas, especially the pack and halfbacks.

Smith has had a few months with his players...Agar has had a season and a half, give Smith the same time and he will have Warrington at the right end of the table, regardless of what players he has at his disposal.

Comparing Smith and Agar is like comparing Wenger and Martinez (at Wigan FC)

and centre, wing and full back, 2nd row could do with some work too.

Although our water carrier is top of the OPTA stats

We're also near the top in the 'Standing Under The Posts Staring At The Ground' table.

Both. For a start they signed our best forward last year and have a way better pack than ours. Yet still thay are not much further up than us in the table.

Your second point I agree with to a degree. Except to say that the better players who play in teams that win things have a personal drive to be successful. It's what sets them apart from those who try hard and may even have some ability but generally it up the wall and remain average. We would appear to have a number of those average types and one of the club's big failings in recent years has been to award this mediocre attitude with fat new contracts.

I think that that is fair. I get the feeling that Kear would have done better with this squad although it's difficult to judge. IMO Agar does have deficiencies because he is an inexperienced coach. I also think that one of the advantages of having no relegation is that we can not only, bring inexperienced British players through the system but bring inexperienced coaches through as well. Next year he will also have the coaching input of some of the most experienced players in the world. Bradford, who are doing worse than Hull, are standing by Macca (I think) for the same reason whilst they go through a rebuilding programme. Kath's attempts in the programme to explain how the salary cap has affected Hull this year is an example of her support for Agar and her frustration at the position FC find themselves in. I understand and empathise with people who want success now and to get rid of Agar but it is my hope he proves to be a worthwhile investment for the future. I'm not sure myself that he is - I just want to give him a chance with a fair roll of the dice. Next year will see him with no hiding place because surely the visa issues and injuries can't repeat.

My point was in answer to a specific post about our error rate. Wire made millions of errors at the weekend. How do you explain that with Smith in charge ? He hasn't had long enough to teach them to catch ?

Good post and very fair comment.

"a fair roll of the dice" - I'd rather he got a fir roll of the drums on his way up the steps to the gallows! (metaphorically)

How much time do people want to give him, "It's okay sir, don't worry, we've got the best up and coming young surgeon in the country, he's a bit deficient in the experience department and his ability to take corrective action has, well, been questioned in the past, but I am sure you'll be fine. Now, just a little scratch......"

people amaze me, RL is a RESULTS BUSINESS.

Don't agree, yes we lost Carvell but his departure is not the main reason we are a poor side, as for Crocker you don't miss what you never had, Thorman is crap admittedly but then we never saw much of Dykes.

For me there is still enough in the players we have to be doing a hell of let better that we are and from time to time this season they have shown they can do it when they can be d but sadly that is only in glimpses.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we would be world beaters but we should be at least competing with the teams in 3rd to 8th, Agar should certainly be getting more out of the players he has at his disposal. An example is Wakefield under Kear not a great talented bunch of players but he gets the best out of them and has moulded them into a team and plays to its strengths, plus he hasn't taken any messing and shipped out if needed and they too have had injury problems, were as our coach is totally clueless or has just written this and last season off as its not his team.

Now this is the question isn't it? Why can't they be bothered? We have the argument that many know they will be shown the door, but you'd think that would up the ante for many of them, as they are in the shop window so to speak. It could of course be pure bitchiness, But then they're blokes and blokes don't do that (do they?

)
I'm still on the side (just) of giving Richard a chance with his team next season, but doing that of course, and it going belly up, could mean we write off yet another season! Do we really have a choice though?
I've calmed down a bit from Friday, and would imagine what Richard said was on the spur of the moment, and we just seemed like another irritant on his back at the time of the interview. But surely he should know by now (he's been here long enough) that Hull FC are the team AND the fans together, and when we feed off each other we do far far better.

But if you don't train that surgeon who's going to take your appendix out when the old ones retire?

but you don't leave them to carry out the work unsupervised, you have them work under the qualified surgeon.