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Teams that voted against it Hudders/Warrington/Wigan /Salford Hull/HKR/.from League Express Monday 20 January 2014 page 3
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| Quote ="kt170496"Teams that voted against it Hudders/Warrington/Wigan /Salford Hull/HKR/.from League Express Monday 20 January 2014 page 3'"
so just like history, the french bottled it! |
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Full credit to AP then.
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Thanks for the replies - and yes, fair play to him. It is what it is and the best has to be made of it.
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Two interesting articles M.R.
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691244478?-4338:2393
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691227586?-4338:2393
Its interesting in the Mail that they presume both local Clubs will have no problem finishing in the 8 on a regular basis but in my opinion neither has actually pulled up any trees in that department of late and with everyone else seemingly stepping up, you only need a few injuries to be in real trouble. How the money will be distributed below Super League will be interesting. As for the Mirror piece its also interesting that it hasn't just been the thoughts of the fans that have been ignored but also the players too. Still as they say we just have to get on with it! |
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Two interesting articles M.R.
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691244478?-4338:2393
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691227586?-4338:2393
Its interesting in the Mail that they presume both local Clubs will have no problem finishing in the 8 on a regular basis but in my opinion neither has actually pulled up any trees in that department of late and with everyone else seemingly stepping up, you only need a few injuries to be in real trouble. How the money will be distributed below Super League will be interesting. As for the Mirror piece its also interesting that it hasn't just been the thoughts of the fans that have been ignored but also the players too. Still as they say we just have to get on with it! | |
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Both Smailes & Mullan are not in a position to flippantly expect Hull & Rovers to be permanent fixtures in the top 8. History suggests this only happens in 2 of every 3 seasons, and that doesn't factor in the "Salford effect". It may not happen this year, but eventually they will pass 1 or both local teams, perhaps not permanently, but they will be in the mix. I can't speak for Hull, but I expect Rovers to be in the 6-10 area each season, so every other season could see us swapping a game at Wigan for a trip to Leigh.
Personally, this doesn't bother me, I get quite nostalgic when thinking of away trips to Fev, Batley etc, so I could get them back without having to suffer the pain of relegation.
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Hated the idea as first floated where I believe it was a mid season split. Now its been laid out in more detail I quite like the idea. Season of struggling to get into the 8 only to lose in the first game have started to get a bit stale, god know how that must be amplified for a widnes or London who's seasons are effectively over by mid May.
At least this way it will add an element of interest for all areas of the league and more beneficial it will allow a chink of light for decent championship clubs. I agree the funding / cap elements need ironing out but I'm happy to see how it goes.
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Quote ="The Dentist Wilf"Two interesting articles M.R.
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691244478?-4338:2393
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691227586?-4338:2393
Its interesting in the Mail that they presume both local Clubs will have no problem finishing in the 8 on a regular basis but in my opinion neither has actually pulled up any trees in that department of late and with everyone else seemingly stepping up, you only need a few injuries to be in real trouble. How the money will be distributed below Super League will be interesting. As for the Mirror piece its also interesting that it hasn't just been the thoughts of the fans that have been ignored but also the players too. Still as they say we just have to get on with it!'"
I pretty much agree with what Smailes and Mullan say about the system in general, glancing at it quickly. Smailes says it's not complicated, but it is a bit, IMO. Not that hard to understand, but not that easy to explain either. And like all complicated systems, there are things that will be exploited. 10th or 11th after round 20, with only an outside chance of making 8th? The temptation will be to conserve energy and avoid injuries for the p&r play-offs, while those just above you might go flat out, one of them maybe entering the post-split phase knackered.
You could carry over bonus points, based on league position I guess...
SL 9th +2
SL 10th +1
SL 11th and 12th no bonus
Ch 1st +2
Ch 2nd +1
Ch 3rd and 4th no bonus
but that is even more complicated. My worry is that it'll need regular 'patching' - like the non-fed system did. Complexity in terms of it increasing the likelihood of 'awkward' outcomes ([iBradford[/i going bust is what did for licensing, when nobody had thought 'what if...?') is bigger concern than people struggling to get their heads around it, IMO.
Pretty overwhelming thumbs down from the players too.
Still, at least they've got a 3-year title-sponsorship in place for the league, so it's not all gloom! |
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Quote ="The Dentist Wilf"Two interesting articles M.R.
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691244478?-4338:2393
www.newsnow.co.uk/A/691227586?-4338:2393
Its interesting in the Mail that they presume both local Clubs will have no problem finishing in the 8 on a regular basis but in my opinion neither has actually pulled up any trees in that department of late and with everyone else seemingly stepping up, you only need a few injuries to be in real trouble. How the money will be distributed below Super League will be interesting. As for the Mirror piece its also interesting that it hasn't just been the thoughts of the fans that have been ignored but also the players too. Still as they say we just have to get on with it!'"
I pretty much agree with what Smailes and Mullan say about the system in general, glancing at it quickly. Smailes says it's not complicated, but it is a bit, IMO. Not that hard to understand, but not that easy to explain either. And like all complicated systems, there are things that will be exploited. 10th or 11th after round 20, with only an outside chance of making 8th? The temptation will be to conserve energy and avoid injuries for the p&r play-offs, while those just above you might go flat out, one of them maybe entering the post-split phase knackered.
You could carry over bonus points, based on league position I guess...
SL 9th +2
SL 10th +1
SL 11th and 12th no bonus
Ch 1st +2
Ch 2nd +1
Ch 3rd and 4th no bonus
but that is even more complicated. My worry is that it'll need regular 'patching' - like the non-fed system did. Complexity in terms of it increasing the likelihood of 'awkward' outcomes ([iBradford[/i going bust is what did for licensing, when nobody had thought 'what if...?') is bigger concern than people struggling to get their heads around it, IMO.
Pretty overwhelming thumbs down from the players too.
Still, at least they've got a 3-year title-sponsorship in place for the league, so it's not all gloom! | |
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| Quote ="Rupert Pupkin"Not if you finish outside the top 8 I bet!'"
Then you'd lose that bet.
As a fan if a club that could miss the top 8 very now and again, the thought of being in a battle to avoid relegation by visiting clubs I wouldn't normally get to see seems far more exciting than the prospect of playing for nothing. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Then you'd lose that bet.
As a fan if a club that could miss the top 8 very now and again, the thought of being in a battle to avoid relegation by visiting clubs I wouldn't normally get to see seems far more exciting than the prospect of playing for nothing.'"
I doubt you could sell that belief to the majority on here, if FC failed to make the top 8. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Then you'd lose that bet.
As a fan if a club that could miss the top 8 very now and again, the thought of being in a battle to avoid relegation by visiting clubs I wouldn't normally get to see seems far more exciting than the prospect of playing for nothing.'"
Over the last couple of days I have come around to that way of thinking. The league really has become a procession to the end of season play offs with half the league with little to play for after May. However, I do worry for the clubs that will be regularly stuck in the bottom four of SL. Were is the incentive to develop players when each season their only goal is to beat the championship clubs in the end of season split. Just see these clubs returning to a short term mind set with past it players on big contracts being signed rather than taking a chance on youth. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Then you'd lose that bet.
As a fan if a club that could miss the top 8 very now and again, the thought of being in a battle to avoid relegation by visiting clubs I wouldn't normally get to see seems far more exciting than the prospect of playing for nothing.'"
£24 to see us play Batley?
Even some passholders would give it a miss.
Does anyone remember 1997? when the "end of season playoffs" put us in a group with Rovers and York, poorly attended, and they sold a mini season ticket for the games. |
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| Quote ="FCFaithful Stu"Over the last couple of days I have come around to that way of thinking. The league really has become a procession to the end of season play offs with half the league with little to play for after May. '"
My thoughts exactly. The only incentive was to get into the 8 before, where they knew they'd most likely be knocked out within a week or two anyway.
Quote ="FCFaithful Stu"However, I do worry for the clubs that will be regularly stuck in the bottom four of SL. Were is the incentive to develop players when each season their only goal is to beat the championship clubs in the end of season split. Just see these clubs returning to a short term mind set with past it players on big contracts being signed rather than taking a chance on youth.'"
I think if clubs fall into that cycle they will ultimately relegated anyway. I think clubs need to be given a bit more charge of their own destiny, and if they choose the wrong options they suffer the consequences. SL was becoming stale and sanitised by the fact they were being told what to do and how to operate, and if they didn't follow those instructions, well... not a lot happened really! |
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Further advantages for growing your own players, taken from the policy review:
5.3.11
In Tier 1, the current Elite Squad Representative Dispensation Allowance is removed, to be replaced by regulation that limits the Salary Cap Value of a Club Trained Player at a nominal value of £100k (i.e. for any Club Trained Player with a Salary Cap Value of over £100k, his Salary Cap Value will be assessed at £100k only with any additional wage not included in his salary cap value). This would reward clubs for producing elite talent and give them an opportunity to retain this talent in the face of competition from other sports and competitions.
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Further advantages for growing your own players, taken from the policy review:
5.3.11
In Tier 1, the current Elite Squad Representative Dispensation Allowance is removed, to be replaced by regulation that limits the Salary Cap Value of a Club Trained Player at a nominal value of £100k (i.e. for any Club Trained Player with a Salary Cap Value of over £100k, his Salary Cap Value will be assessed at £100k only with any additional wage not included in his salary cap value). This would reward clubs for producing elite talent and give them an opportunity to retain this talent in the face of competition from other sports and competitions.'" £100k sounds a big number to me! All it means is if you pay a Club Trained Player £150k his cap value will be £100k.
I see that RU's cap has gone up by £500,000 to £5m, NRL up by £250,000 to £3.4m. Superleague up by ......nothing.
It's actually quite difficult to "share" out £1.8m between 30 players.
9x£30k, 9x£60k, 7*£90k, 3*£120k comes to £1.8
Changing things around a bit reduces the squad size significantly. |
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| Quote ="ccs"£100k sounds a big number to me! All it means is if you pay a Club Trained Player £150k his cap value will be £100k.
I see that RU's cap has gone up by £500,000 to £5m, NRL up by £250,000 to £3.4m. Superleague up by ......nothing.
It's actually quite difficult to "share" out £1.8m between 30 players.
9x£30k, 9x£60k, 7*£90k, 3*£120k comes to £1.8
Change things around a bit reduces the squad size significantly.'"
If you produce your own players, and they become star players, you can keep them under the cap more easily. Buying in star players will eat at the cap.
Look at Wigan. Look at the players they've produced. You couldn't buy in a squad like that. You've quoted around 10 players in a squad to be paid around the £100k mark. In theory, you could grow your own ten players, invest in them and turn them into star players whilst keeping them under the cap. They'd be at the £1m mark collectively, but really you could pay them anything you like.
If that's not incentive to grow your own players then I don't know what is.
Clubs with a short term strategy will not be able to build a squad that challenged with £1.8m, but a club that spends time producing it's players will. The club will have more room to keep these players as well instead of bigger clubs poaching them. |
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I don't disagree with what you're saying.
All I'm trying to highlight is that £1.8m doesn't go far and doesn't share out very easily.
Infact, my numbers are wrong, they only add up to 28 players!
10 home grown stars (if only) on £100k cap still doesn't leave very much for the other 20.
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| Quote ="ccs"I don't disagree with what you're saying.
All I'm trying to highlight is that £1.8m doesn't go far and doesn't share out very easily.
Infact, my numbers are wrong, they only add up to 28 players!
10 home grown stars (if only) on £100k cap still doesn't leave very much for the other 20.'"
If you had 10 homegrown stars worth over £100k, you wouldn't need much room for the rest!
Also, isn't the cap for the top 25 earners? |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"If you had 10 homegrown stars worth over £100k, you wouldn't need much room for the rest!
Also, isn't the cap for the top 25 earners?'"
It does indeed, and then their is a secondary cap, designed for players in the academy to be brought through and be able to play first team without affecting cap rules. I believe the current amount is 75,000 for the secondary cap but I may be wrong on that, I'd need to check.
The home grown cap cap isn't designed to aid particularly to build squads with (beyond the norm) merely help with the retention of the likes of tomkins and graham. It should be quite successful hopefully. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Also, isn't the cap for the top 25 earners?'" I'd forgotten about that one. Just had a look at the rules again, but all the references to first and second tier liabilities has melted my brain. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Further advantages for growing your own players, taken from the policy review:
5.3.11
In Tier 1, the current Elite Squad Representative Dispensation Allowance is removed, to be replaced by regulation that limits the Salary Cap Value of a Club Trained Player at a nominal value of £100k (i.e. for any Club Trained Player with a Salary Cap Value of over £100k, his Salary Cap Value will be assessed at £100k only with any additional wage not included in his salary cap value). This would reward clubs for producing elite talent and give them an opportunity to retain this talent in the face of competition from other sports and competitions.'"
Really like this new rule. it should really encourage the clubs to build their own squads. Doesn't it go away from what the salary cap was meant to guard against though. If you develop 10 superstars of the game, highly unlikely I know, you can in effect pay them each £250,000 to keep them at the club but only list 1 million on the cap. So you spend 2.5 million on just ten players before even paying the rest of the squad. However unlikely this would happen it could quite easily lead to clubs suffering financially. |
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| Quote ="FCFaithful Stu"Really like this new rule. it should really encourage the clubs to build their own squads. Doesn't it go away from what the salary cap was meant to guard against though. If you develop 10 superstars of the game, highly unlikely I know, you can in effect pay them each £250,000 to keep them at the club but only list 1 million on the cap. So you spend 2.5 million on just ten players before even paying the rest of the squad. However unlikely this would happen it could quite easily lead to clubs suffering financially.'"
It's up to clubs to be sensible. I'm not a fan of the RFL controlling everything clubs do. Risk is a part of sport. If we sanitise things too much, we won't attract pioneers. |
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would like to see any increase in cap money only allowed to be spent to devolp home grown talent
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