Interesting. The difficulty with all of this is that we don't really know - with some exceptions - whether a player is playing poorly because he's out of form , not fit ( sometimes ), not good enough, can't be @rsed or he's having to do someone elses work because they're not in form , fit , good enough etc. The balance of the team as a result of poor recruitment and retention and injuries has been wrong for a long time. No half backs, too many back rowers, at times no pace/size/aggression , too many young/old players etc. Putting right any one of those factors would possibly have had a positive effect on one or more players performances so there is in fact a liklihood that some of the players that we discard (if we do!) may suddenly look significantly better wherever they end up if they "fit in" to a balanced team. It will be very interesting to see in a year or so's time which of the players retained and discarded are going OK and which aren't. Getting discarded could in fact be the best thing that could happen to some of the players who currently wouldn't want to go. If it happens.
Having said all of that I still think a decent coach would have made a better fist of getting more out of the players we've got and molded some sort of team.

Agree with all of that, hence why this thread is all about opinions. I do think though that some players have simply come to the end of the line, and it would benefit them as much as it would benefit us for them to move on (G Horne for example).

And if the 9 out thats rumoured come from this lot and we bring some better players in then it defo looks better for next year. Especially if we manage to lose the 'drinkers' once and for all.

agree with you totally about Berro, the guy is class, the rest of the team make him average, hes so far ahead, than what we have, no-one's on the same level!!

When it comes to a clear out, i think its better to look at players i definatley dont want to leave. The only players i dont want to leave are
Calderwood
Yeaman
Briscoe
Hall
Berrigan
Manu
Washbrook
Houghton
Burnett
Moa

I dont include R Horne in this because i wonder how much he earns as a senior player and think, could that money buy better. I rate him but at what cost.

Am i fickle yes, but sport is not about sentiment.

No Raynor



Top player who if in the Leeds or Saints side would be sensational with his offloads.

reason i dont include raynor, although i like him, i again wonder how much he does earn as at the time of signing he was a gb winger. Must be on a fair wack and would not be bothered hugely if Raynor was released to give Briscoe the wing slot full time.

Next season Hall and Briscoe should start every game. They are in my opinion, full of current ability and have the prospect to be world class.

However on the flip, with Long a half back who can pass and kick especially, Raynor could get bags next season.

Must defenmd Richard Horne, FFS first poor season since broke into the team at 16.

Bearing in mind the impact of last years injury, distraction of his testimonial & the fact he is playing in a poop team with NO ball players & little go - forward up front it is hardly surprsing !!

I expect a top season next year, playing behind a dominant pack & outside Longy.

He remains the 'golden one' we should cherish ( accepting little gold on show this year ! ).

I do rate Horne, just think to have a running back like him, we need to have a play making 13. If not we will be were we are now still, Long will not play every game next year, nor will most players in the league.

I also remember Horne been the best player in the league for the first five games this year. My post was not who i want rid of, just who i definatley dont want to leave.

I know what you're saying re: Horne & Raynor, its not as ludicrous to say that as some think. But while I'm seriously up for a major clearout of the squad's deadwood, we don't want to be in a position of completely starting again with the squad. With this in mind, I think the two in question more than deserve to stay.

7 going, and there among them

1. Sleazy
2. Sleepy
3. Dopey
4. Dick
5. Crappy
6. Bashed up
7. Drunky

And the 1 already out makes 8

R Horne has a large amount of his wages taken off the cap due to being here 10 years, so is technically cheap in salary cap terms, hence why FC can "afford" to pay him more

thought you said berrigan was staying?

So some people on here would release
R Horne
Berrigan
Rayner
If that was released to the press tomorrow there would be a queue of super league coaches at the KC ready to snap all three up.
After 10 years does Rich not have the right to a dip in form after his health problems, his tackling has saved this club over the seasons, STS/LEEDS would have used him more for his attacking abilities rather than defence like Hull.
Berrigan=class
Horne and Raynor would be scoring tries for fun at certain other clubs,
Raynor outside of Gidley imagine it, awesome

I could play outside of Gidley and look awesome

Briscoe IS NOT A WINGER he is a centre so why people would Raynor go is beyond me and Richard Horne is having a bad time of it but he is still one of our top players for me I would keep
Tansey
Raynor
Hall
Briscoe
Yeaman
Calderwood
R.Horne
Berrigan
Houghton
Lauaki
Manu
Washbrook
Moa
The rest I wouldn't be bothered if they went.

Totally agree. If anything, I think it's the opposite of what Big Dave is saying. He's not being lauded regardless of performance when he's not producing, he's actually not producing consistently and being judged more harshly for it because of his record. FWIW I still think he's been better than Lee in the hooking position this year. Lee has had a consistent, but average at best, season. Berrigan has had 1 or 2 poor games, mostly average, but a few good ones as well, with moments of real quality sprinkled in there.

The fact that he's so far ahead of his teammates is actually holding him back in a way, as at times he heads towards a gap, turns to find the runner, and there's nobody there so he ends up ambling into the tackle and looking like he's made an error. It's like when a good footballer pulls of a great ball but his teammate hasn't read it so it trickles out of play; the quality player looks bad, but it was the limitations of his colleague that caused it.

My main recollection of Berrigan this year is of him making the half break and having nobody there to finish it off. Then there are moments like the jink and offload to Cordoba against Celtic and his slice through the defence in the first derby, things not one of our other players have looked like even being capable of.

It could quite as easily be asked what has Lee done over the season that has been better than Berrigan?

Don't get me wrong, Lee has had a decent season, but I'd rather have a player who has proven he's got the class to be outstanding when the team allow him (even in a Hull shirt IMO, contrary to what you're saying. He's just not done it every week, but he has still done it at times), rather than someone who can simply do a job adequately.

Which is where I think you're being unfair. No matter how world class a player, they will only shine consistently when the team around them and the coaching enable it, particularly when their role is a creative one reliant on using those around them. It's not like he's the sort who's there to break the line and go the length of the pitch, or to break tackles and offload consistently, he's simply not got the tools around him to do his job properly.

You've said he should still look like a champ and not a chump, but in flashes he has. But no single player can make a gap out of nothing on his own every game. You accuse others of protecting him because of his reputation, but in your case you're making him pay the price for it.

If our personnel and tactics stay the same for next year, I fear you'll view Long in much the same way.

Excellent point. In fact it's ironic that when Swain was here we used to play the kind of rugby that would have seen Berrigan shine, whereas with the current 'tactics' Swain would be far more suitable.

The fact that his wages don't fully count on the cap doesn't mean the money magically appears from somewhere, the club still has to make the money in the first place.

I like Rich, he is a great guy and has been a good servant to the club, but if he doesn't recapture some form and confidence then we may need to look elsewhere, he has so many issues against him this season mind.