That's the point I'm making though (as Kosh has touched on above). Things are not 'worse than ever' now, either in politics or society in general. There's a lot of negativity and scare-mongering goes on in publications like the Daily Mail who would have us believe that the simple act of stepping out of your front door leaves you at a 96% chance of being raped and killed by an illegal immigrant, but the fact is, whilst there are undoubtedly areas of the country that are not particularly safe, 'society' as a whole isn't much worse (if any worse) than it was 50, 100 or 150 years ago.

Yes, I have actually, but the difference being The shariah courts have wrongly been allowed to make judgements on domestic violence, which is a criminal offence, and therefore juristiction of the police, whereas as far as I'm aware, Beth Din doesn't

I guess the fact that its not simple means that we are currently avoiding it but surely it should be attempted anyway. Billions wasted every year from what i read.

We aren't avoiding it. The welfare system now is significantly different and tougher than it was 10 years ago. There is still more to do, but it's hardly being ignored.

Also you want to be careful about believing what you read about waste in the welfare system. It's a popular hobby-horse for tabloids and politicians alike, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to revenue lost through tax avoidance and evasion, for instance. And fixing that is something that is being avoided by both Tories and Labour.

I was implying there was only an issue with the welfare system. I'm aware of huge issues right across the board including the welfare system. Problem is that in the public sector/government in general these things take far too long to sort at at far too great a cost. The major reform needed in the area above is around the structures of the organisations and the sign-off/empowerment/authorisation levels given to the employees to make a difference rather than everything being ratified and signed of at senior levels.

Have you seen some of the muppets that work in the public sector? The last thing most (not all, by any means) of those people need is more authority.

We could make a start by increasing the minimum wage, while pegging base benefits.

But then we'd have every tory, the CBI, Littlejohn et al repeating their prophesies of doom because eni fule no that paying someone a living wage would bring the country financial disaster.

In case you hadnt guessed my opening line was meant to say 'I wasnt implying'

I have seen some of the muppets yeah, and a lot of the muppets conform to the title because of the lack of opportunity to make a difference. Often 'on the shop floor' they know better than the decision makers at senior levels. Public sector needs to instill some pride in people jobs again, making them the decision makers largely through empowerment is the first large step in making a huge culture change, which ultimately is whats needed.

I was a student when minimum wage came out and thought it was a good thing. On reflection and viewing the reality around it all it has done is meant that products and services cost more to fund the wage increase for employees and taxes have gone up to cover a variety of other benefits. IMO the minumum wage was a huge mistake in the first instance and has lead to the situation we're in now.

The problem is, for every person that might make a positive difference through empowerment, there are two or three who will make a pigs of it.



What better way to encourage people to stay on benefits than making sure the only job they can get pays next to f*ck all.

Yes there may be the ones that cant deal with being empowered, especially in an org that isnt used to it. This is where good management comes in to support and coach them to deal with it and idenfity the people that cant and make sure they arent put under the pressure to do it.

What better way to encourage people to stay on benefits than making sure they are rewarded far more than lots of people on the existing minimum wage!


The solution for me would have been to not bring in the minimum wage and to absolutely strip back benefits. Only benefits that would remain would be where people have absolutely no choice about working or not like some disability benefits etc

Would make people value education and qualifications more.

All sounds great in theory. And totally impractical in reality.



So, your argument against paying people a decent living wage is that people on benefits are getting similar amounts or more? That sounds to me like an argument for increasing the minimum wage.

I agree that the number of people on benefits needs to reduce, thus reducing the overall benefits bill, but the amount each individual claimant gets really isn't a lot.

The bit about rhetoric vs reality is the issue. For things to change people have got to believe it can and get on board the journey. 'Be the change you want to see'

Guess public sectors need motivating to get on board and once they start to see the difference the motivation is there automatically. Ive seen it happen.

The arguement for minimum wage can be both sides, put it up or drop it. We are both obviously in different camps there. I know people that choose to not work because they get more on benefits than they would at work. You telling me that thats not an issue? (even with the minimuw wage. Benefits and minimum wage should both drop for me)

Hello toryboy, don't tell me, you also believe the "trickle-down" theory works too?

I'm actually 100% labour, i'm just able to form my own opinions whether they fit within a policy or not through my education, work experience and life experiece. Any more insults?

We are talking about the here and now mate. The BNP were not around in Victorian times. They have only recently been elected. If you think education standards have on the whole improved in the last 30 years you surprise me. That despite the huge extra investment that has been thrown into education sector and the public sector as a whole.

Don't think I said that anywhere, did I?

You can't educate people who don't want to be educated. Simple. And this country celebrates and rewards ignorance and mediocrity rather than education and achievement. That's cultural and media-driven rather than the direct result of Government policy. No matter how good a school is, if the kids coming in don't want to get an education and their parents can't be bothered there is very little you can do.

I'm no fan of this Government and I'm unimpressed with politicians generally, but they are not solely to blame for the ignorance that blights large sections of our society. And I'm also not sure what the alternative to having a liberal society is. A totalitarian one?

As i'm sure youre aware in business there's a general principle that employees who expect things to happen to them or for them are generally less engaged and less productive. Same for me in life, lots of people expect things to be given to them like an education and an NHS etc. Far too many people wanting to take and far too few wanting to work really hard for it and go get it. IMO of course.

You have been on waaaaaay too many management training courses.

Or alternatively ive worked and seen some of the UK's largest organisations go through huge culture change and seen the drivers for it.

The point is that there are far too many who [idon't[/i want an education given to them. It's not just that they're not prepared to work for it - they don't see the point in it at all. When these kids are pitching up at primary school with this attitude there's only one thing to blame - crap parenting.

On your more general point I actually couldn't agree more. It's all about what you can get with little or no effort rather than what you can achieve through hard work and bettering yourself. We just see different root causes. You're happy to blame the system whereas I think the problem lies a lot deeper and is not going to be easily addressed.

I'm also not prepared to see people in genuine need of Government support through no fault of their own suffer so that we can feel better about being tough on life's wasters.

And this can only be achieved through the use of cringeworthy and patronising buzzwords?

Im not intentionally blaming the system. The system is what it is. I agree there are far deeper causes, and in education i'm 99% in favour of the parent been at fault. But how do you convince a parent thats 5th generation no education that their child should get one? Especially if they dont see anything wrong with where they are currently.

Can't agree that Government and its policies are not the main driver of attitudes in society. If it isn't then that in itself demonstrates its own total failure. As for a liberal society my point was that it has stretched too far in the direction of liberal, not that we should change to some other order. I don't think the balance is right.

Anyway I'll sign off on this one. The only thing stopping me slitting my wrists right now is the thought of our pack taking the field next year.