Dave no need to be personal just to make your argument stronger because it is a weak one mate,
lets stick with facts and stats as you like to do!
I also believe in my humble opinion that over the time i have been on this forum you have said some quality things and made some valid points but you have also said some erm not so clever things too, like using insults to back up a weak point of view

Did you not read my reply again. I fully appreciate where we were sat at this time last year and where we are sat this year, performance wise there has barely been an improvement. (other than the success that is Fitz)

In all seriousness putting everything into perspective we are an really poor team with a dire coach. (you can let 4th in the table hide the reality as much as you want)

I guess youre previous condasending post calling me 'son' maybe rubbed me up the wrong way mate

We'd have to disagree massively on that then. If you think that Wire/Wigan/Saints and Leeds haven't scored lots of points becuase of the international quality of their playmakers then I'm not sure what else it is. Of course they need a platform as well. The fact is that some players are much much better than others - somthing that at times I think you fail to accept. These are the players that finish up playing for their country. Before Long how many of our halves had done that (at half back) ? Horne maybe but he was less than successful at that level. The best creative (and running) halves play for the top teams. The top teams score the most points. It isn't a coincidence.

saints lost pryce and eastmond last week at home to the bottom team and duly got turned over!!!! same with leeds,earlier in the season when they lost sinfield.they struggled without him there!

My apologies


However Dave please please humour me by using your knowledge of stats as you are so good with and i am so useless with and tell me please which position in the super league table where we sat with 6 games to go last year at this very same point

Dont get me wrong, i understand that. My point is simply that with Washy and Berro in the halves for example we should be doing better than what we have done. I said the same last season when Washy and Horne or Washy and Berro played too, i appreciate we aren't going to look as good as we would with Long in the side but i still expect more from what we have. They look like theyve never met.

What i will tell you is that in 2009 we won nowt and played poor. In 2010 we will finish with exactly the same record.

Yet Big Dave would have you believe that we are sat in 4th having had no real halfbacks again this year because were crap !!
so we have had no thought process or direction out there for the third year on the trot and were in 4th because were crap !!!???!!!
with a settled uninjured half back pairing we could have been top two!!!

WITH 6 GAMES TO GO LAST SEASON WHAT PLACE WERE WE ???
go on Dave you can tell me whilst no one else is looking quick !!

As will at least 11 other teams.

Will you give it a fecking rest, he knows were we were, we all do, why do you need him to say it?

The sign of a top team is playing well through adversity. Do you honestly think we've done that? (forget the 4th in the league argument just for one minute)

Have our halfbacks (even with our main halfbacks injured) given us a little bit of direction and created a link? Have we worked on improving any of that in training? Do we look the same disfunctional side as we did last year?

But if Saints, Leeds, Wigan or Warrington lose out at least they can say they performed well and enjoyed watching their side this year.

In the last game I agree they were poor. I think they're being asked to do a job they can't/don't want to do. Bad luck on them really they should have done better than they did.
But your wider point, and that of some others, is that the brand of rugby we play is not exciting enough. My point is that you can't just go and play exciting rugby if you aint got the skill and organisation - tools if you like - to do it. Otherwise Keighley could anounce that their squad was entering SL and expected to win it because their intention was to play an exciting brand. They would get mullered of course because their players wouldn't be good enough.

What would you class as adversity?

BUT in a far higher league position with a play off game which is a zillion per cent better than the last two outings , in my book, the book of the club and any other coach/ director and 99% of fans would accept that as a result compared to the shambles that was the last two seasons and a building block for next season...erm apart from you

So you would rather look good and lose than look bad and win?

to prove he is wrong simple as that, its too easy to slate the situation and use stats to prove a point however stats also can be used to defend the situation
WE ARE 4TH ITS BETTER THAN THE LAST TWO YEARS COMBINED!!!

wtf are you honestly saying that a team that plays champagne rugby but looses and wins nothing is better to watch ???
I rest my case

I just said that ha ha

I guess my point in that space is that our players imo are good enough to play better than we do.

Injuries.

It's true that many of our victories have been founded upon top quality defence - our much improved defensive stat this year is rarely quoted even though it's half the game. When we have wavered it has generally been our defence that has failed us. This is where I think Agar is right to be honest and I called it a while back. When we have injuries to key players that is EXACTLY the time when you play it tight and try to use your strengths on the field - our forwards this year. When we didn't win the battle up front then we have struggled and lost badly at times. What I wouldn't do as a coach is be in the situation where I was struggling for a halfback combination and tell the team to go out and throw the ball around willy nilly. If the quality of distribution is below par then that's simply asking for it.

Yes a team that plays champagne rugby is better to watch. Isnt that obvious. (teams that perform better are more likely to win things and be successful over time too)