Read again, it says "epidemic"
You cannot disagree with "1%" quote.

I read it again. You said it was a "fake pandemic".

I don't disagree that 1% have died. But I don't think it's trivial. That number is a massive number of people.

I never said people reportedly dying was fake. I never dispute figures of lots of people dying. I said, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, I said the report of a worldwide "Pandemic" dude to C-19 was fake, or if you prefer, a scam. A scam to realize a political and economic agenda using seasonal flu figures (e.g. 80.000 in the USA in 201icon_cool.gif to carry out that agenda.
Does that help.
By the way, I put my points across first so answer mine, you know how to debate don't you ? first. . Re the 2 people you know at Pinders, did you see my quotes from Doctors re the mis reporting of covid? Did you research how much per patient USA doctors get for ticking the covid box as opposed to the flu box? Doctors don't trust doctors so why should we?

Not the text you were quoting (previous post.)

So tell me, how many is not trivial, and do we have a lockdown every year for ever ? Ever seen the annual flu death rate?

Re 80, 000 2018 flu deaths in the USA. Where was your, or anyone else's argument that we should not admit North American teams and fans into the UK Rugby League. By your logic that is the best argument ever, never mind the lack of players. Go on then, argue that.

So you lock down and Boris fans, be careful what you wish for.

We cannot protect ourselves for ever, sh*t happens, we deal with it.

Without taking your post apart your last paragraph sums it up, policemen maybe what you want but go back to the Peelian principles of the 1820's that are still good today. Baddies as you call them get arrested every day. The police are not responsible for prosecuting criminals the wider Judicial system is.

Anyway you have your opinion I have my experience no point ping ponging about it.

I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake.

I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates.

What I can say is
8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers.

The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher.

Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse.

In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial.

It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same.
I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it.
My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially.

There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet.

In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should.

And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.

Quote ="Miro"Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.'" Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??

Quote ="Miro"Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.'" Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??

Quote ="PopTart"I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates. =#BF40BFWhat I can say is 8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers. The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher. Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse. In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial. It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same. I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially. There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet. In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should. And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.'" This tends to destroy the first part of your response. And it answers the comment on "flu has a vaccine" I again I provide links, Alex Matthews-King Health Correspondent The Independent Friday 30 November 2018 The flu vaccine’s failure to protect against some of the key strains of the infection contributed to more than 50,000 “extra” deaths in England and Wales last winter, according to data from the Office of National Statistics. It was the worst winter on record for more than 40 years, with the 1975-76 season being the last time deaths climbed so high above the expected levels. The NHS was rocked by a record winter crisis in early 2018, with a massive rise in flu cases and sub-zero temperatures triggered by the Beast from the East storm, which added further to death rates. serious "Aussie flu", officials said in January that the vaccine which had been widely used was not effective against some of the more prevalent strains of the virus affecting the UK. The impact on death rates was apparent as early as March, when experts warned the government must “urgently investigate” a spike of 10,000 deaths in the first weeks of 2018. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 60496.html You say..." if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. What a ridicules statement. Do you ever give your posts any serious thought? Rugby players die on the field in our sport, as we at Trinity well know. So, it's unlikely those deaths would have occurred had the players not been under the strain of training and playing rugby, after all, it has a tremendous strain upon the heart. Now, what's your argument to carry on supporting rugby. I know quite a lot of older players, players in their later years suffering from Alzheimer's. Seems quite disproportionate to me though I can't prove it but all those wacks around the head and the studies from soccer re heading a ball tell us something.. Again, if banning rugby saves just one death or one case of alzhhiemers it's worth it in your view ? I guess you won't be going to Belle Vue anytime soon, if ever.

Quote ="PopTart"I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates. =#BF40BFWhat I can say is 8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers. The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher. Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse. In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial. It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same. I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially. There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet. In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should. And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.'" This tends to destroy the first part of your response. And it answers the comment on "flu has a vaccine" I again I provide links, Alex Matthews-King Health Correspondent The Independent Friday 30 November 2018 The flu vaccine’s failure to protect against some of the key strains of the infection contributed to more than 50,000 “extra” deaths in England and Wales last winter, according to data from the Office of National Statistics. It was the worst winter on record for more than 40 years, with the 1975-76 season being the last time deaths climbed so high above the expected levels. The NHS was rocked by a record winter crisis in early 2018, with a massive rise in flu cases and sub-zero temperatures triggered by the Beast from the East storm, which added further to death rates. serious "Aussie flu", officials said in January that the vaccine which had been widely used was not effective against some of the more prevalent strains of the virus affecting the UK. The impact on death rates was apparent as early as March, when experts warned the government must “urgently investigate” a spike of 10,000 deaths in the first weeks of 2018. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 60496.html You say..." if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. What a ridicules statement. Do you ever give your posts any serious thought? Rugby players die on the field in our sport, as we at Trinity well know. So, it's unlikely those deaths would have occurred had the players not been under the strain of training and playing rugby, after all, it has a tremendous strain upon the heart. Now, what's your argument to carry on supporting rugby. I know quite a lot of older players, players in their later years suffering from Alzheimer's. Seems quite disproportionate to me though I can't prove it but all those wacks around the head and the studies from soccer re heading a ball tell us something.. Again, if banning rugby saves just one death or one case of alzhhiemers it's worth it in your view ? I guess you won't be going to Belle Vue anytime soon, if ever.

Quote ="wrencat1873"Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, =#FF8000there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??'" See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!

Quote ="wrencat1873"Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, =#FF8000there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??'" See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!

Quote ="Miro"See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!'" Thanks for the links to the "leaked" German reports. As you will appreciate, it's going to take some time to translate and read the thing You still dont wish to explain the excess deaths in the UK though ? and the spike that you mention surely is included in the 5 year average, therefore meaning that thing as are even worse than the figures being portrayed. I'm ok with the conspiracy stuff and good on ya for sharing it with us and there is little argument that "lockdown" will indeed had severe consequences in various different directions. The list of negative impact is long and far reaching and the full effects may not be known for many, many years. Back to the fundamental question. Why on earth would any government put themselves at risk of deselection as part of a "scam" ? There are far clever people than you or I that will be top of any valid counter claim against the virus.

Quote ="Miro"See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!'" Thanks for the links to the "leaked" German reports. As you will appreciate, it's going to take some time to translate and read the thing You still dont wish to explain the excess deaths in the UK though ? and the spike that you mention surely is included in the 5 year average, therefore meaning that thing as are even worse than the figures being portrayed. I'm ok with the conspiracy stuff and good on ya for sharing it with us and there is little argument that "lockdown" will indeed had severe consequences in various different directions. The list of negative impact is long and far reaching and the full effects may not be known for many, many years. Back to the fundamental question. Why on earth would any government put themselves at risk of deselection as part of a "scam" ? There are far clever people than you or I that will be top of any valid counter claim against the virus.

The Hong Kong flu pandemic in 1968/69 killed 80,000 people in the UK, and that was amongst a much smaller population than now.
I don't recall there been the severe measures put in place that there is now.
There are likely to be more non Covid 19 deaths caused by lockdown, people not been able to access NHS care for other serious life threatening diseases, loneliness, depression etc .
I've no idea why the powers that be, have taken the steps they have, but my children and grandchildren will be paying for it for years to come.

It's fair to say that the world was a very different place in 1968 with significantly less movement of people, especially between countries.
Although there are some that just dont believe the numbers circa 50,000 dead and this with severe lockdown and restrictions on movement - just imagine how high that number could have been.
Not to mention huge improvements in living conditions and medicine over the past 50 years.
I absolutely agree that the price to be paid by our kids and grand kids will be huge and long lasting and that many people will suffer and some sadly die as a consequence.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, no government on the planet would lock their ecconomy down for fun as it's very likely to see them removed from office when the electorate have chance.

I agree with Miro on this subject. It's all political exactly like the Iraq War. This has been created to interefere with the US elections in November and as a power grab by Governments across the world.

Has anyone cared to investigate why Dominic Cummings traveled to Barnard Castle?

Was it the official narrative of testing his eye sight, spending time with his family or something else?

Can anyone on here provide the actual answer?

Does anyone not pushing a rad left agenda, even care

Wish someone would tell Boris 40,000+ dead is not a record to be proud of.

Has anyone even questioned the mainstream media's obsession with George Floyd? Please look up this man's previous convictions.
The character of the killer cop? What racist group is he a member of? Evidence of his behavior suggests that of a psychopath rather than an actual racist.
Does anyone question why they spread FEAR through a flu like virus and inciting identity politics? It's 'Divide & Rule', they've done it throughout History, ask any person who has studied history at a high academic level. Examples of this existed in India between Hindu and Muslim relations, in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. FEAR is a psychological tool to control people. It's quite obvious to them that the majority of Britain now isn't religious and cannot be controlled using it anymore. So they're using a classic fascist and communist style media brainwashing to make us comply with their fake narrative. Alleging the British police that work in a highly dangerous job on a pittance wage to protect us from crime are all racists?

The media are behind perpetuating all this nonsense and need to stand trial immediately. I accept this virus is real but the hysteria whipped up around it is fake. The blanket manufactured racism accusations against British police officers in the US and UK is pathetic. It's all to push this "new normal" an agenda that make's us accept their wishes without any critical thinking or discussion. So sad to see the day that extreme left wing politics is trying to undermine the progress of this great country.

Excellent post, you've hit the nail on the head.

Never before did I realise that Wakefield was conspiracy central

You learn something new everyday Wrencat, so the saying goes,

I think if anyone needs to stand trail it’s the cabinet.

My only question is....... Who is THEY?

I'm going to regret making this thread aren't I?
At least we are all discussing in a civil way. Thank you for that.

which one first, current or shadow
its not like we're over run with palatable alternatives

On previous poster regarding the cabinet, I certainly agree they should also stand trial. They are part of the same problem as the mainstream media. Does anyone realise organisations like the BBC are state funded to spread psychological fear? It's no secret, you can find it on their Gov website, lookup the SAGE Meeting 18, 23 March 2020 "Options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures". Is this not open to corruption? On this matter, why were SAGE daily meetings cancelled and not declared between 19 March to 22 March just before lockdown? Why don't the media talk about #oldlivesmatter? The care homes make up 57% of the total COVID19 deaths; that's people of all genders and ethnicity. This is an absolute national tragedy and needs again immediate investigation. Plenty of owners, nurses and carers have sounded the alarm that they were clearing old people out of hospital and dumping them into care homes. Everyone knew before this crisis with the information coming out of Italy that COVID19 is far worst for the elderly than the seasonal flu. Would any decent minded person on this forum push for that to happen even if a patient was suffering from the seasonal flu?

As for THEY my honest answer at this time is I don't actually know. I would put my suspicion of it being planned by the US Democrat party, funded by the EU council, WHO and China. Remember it's election year in the US and it's quite clear Donal Trump is hated by the elite all over the world. Also by the UK political classes, both Tory and Labour, that hold the people's Brexit vote with such contempt.

I would be though more confident in answering the current debate surrounding the "second wave" argument. Unequivocally my answer is Yes. This will start to build momentum in November / December 2020. If you look at the ONS data for the last 20 years its undoubted that respiratory diseases spread much faster the last few weeks of December. All those extra deaths from flu like illnesses and deaths from undiagnosed cancer sufferers will undoubtedly be associated to COVID19. With the amount of money being invested into the vaccine they will looking to force the vaccine onto us so they see a return. This virus does not warrant a vaccine for the mass majority of this country. Any doubts please go and listen to the Oxford University Professor Sunetra Gupta on YouTube.

Can I just say please don't think I'm being insensitive to this debate. I'm as upset as anyone for the lives lost and economic damage caused by this crisis. A work colleague of mine died with COVID19 as the hospital had cancelled treatment for edema caused by diabetes. All I want is to get to the bottom of the truth.

Respect to everyone on here no matter their view. Freedom of thought over censorship.