"Dealing with the George Floyd incident properly" is still unlikely to happen, as it would require the vast majority of the population to suddenly lose their prejudice (either intended or subconscious.
There is racism, of different levels, across all societies in all countries.
I've yet to meet anyone who admits to being racist but, most people do have some level of prejudice against some people for all sorts of reasons and some are downright racist.

The stuff that was allowed back in the 70/80's was appalling but, importantly, it didn't seem that way at the time.

We have a prime minister that has himself used language which is just totally inappropriate and yet he, is charged with ensuring that we have a fair and tolerant society


There was going to be an Islamophobia enquiry into the Tory party prior to the General Election, which they conveniently managed to move a more general enquiry but, I doubt that this will happen in the current Parliament, if it happens at all but, they were all too keen to play the racist card with the anti-Semitic rhetoric that was endlessly thrown at their opposition.

As for the protests, it seems quite ridiculous to have any mass gatherings that could spread the virus but, many would argue that, in the longer term, this issue is far too important to ignore and as with anything that needs to change, timing and momentum are key, to getting things done.

I agree with what you say Wrencat but just to clarify, when I said dealing with the incident I meant the immediate people involved in his death, not global racism. That is a change that will take generations.
But change has to start somewhere and as a famous person once said, if not now then when?

The PM was following Scientific Advice.

Well, he said that he was

It's just unfortunate that his scientific advisers appear to have the scientific knowledge of an amoeba. That is my opinion at least, based upon some of the absolutely appalling press conferences they have given.

Where did I say masks are "worthwhile"? Trolling? is this how anyone with an opinion is treated on here? Pathetic.

Sorry, what are you accusing me of to consider I may burn down a 5G mast?

I think most of them have been gagged to be fair. Except for the one guy who dared to speak out against Cummings by saying “the rules apply to all”.

Just curious as to why you think this pandemic is fake. Just because either yourself or anyone you know hasn’t been affected by it doesn’t mean it’s not real.

Sorry for your wife's loss, however, where did I say no one dies of C-19. I said the claim that we have a pandemic is "fake" quite a different scenario you agree?
Also, please check that C-19 was the cause, here is what NHS Dr Malcolm Kendrick has to say.

"As an NHS doctor, I’ve seen people die and be listed as a victim of coronavirus without ever being tested for it. But unless we have accurate data, we won’t know which has killed more: the disease or the lockdown?

"I suppose most people would be somewhat surprised to know that the cause of death, as written on death certificates, is often little more than an educated guess. Most people die when they are old, often over eighty. There is very rarely going to be a post-mortem carried out, which means that, as a doctor, you have a think about the patient’s symptoms in the last two weeks of life or so. You go back over the notes to look for existing medical conditions.

Previous stroke, diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, angina, dementia and suchlike. Then you talk to the relatives and carers and try to find out what they saw. Did they struggle for breath, were they gradually going downhill, not eating or drinking?

If I saw them in the last two weeks of life, what do I think was the most likely cause of death? There are, of course, other factors. Did they fall, did they break a leg and have an operation – in which case a post-mortem would more likely be carried out to find out if the operation was a cause.

Mostly, however, out in the community, death certification is certainly not an exact science. Never was, never will be. It’s true that things are somewhat more accurate in hospitals, where there are more tests and scans, and suchlike.

Then, along comes Covid-19, and many of the rules – such as they were – went straight out the window. At one point, it was even suggested that relatives could fill in death certificates, if no-one else was available. Though I am not sure this ever happened.

What were we now supposed to do? If an elderly person died in a care home, or at home, did they die of Covid-19? Well, frankly, who knows? Especially if they didn’t have a test for Covid-19 – which for several weeks was not even allowed. Only patients entering hospital were deemed worthy of a test. No-one else.

What advice was given? It varied throughout the country, and from coroner to coroner – and from day to day. Was every person in a care home now to be diagnosed as dying of the coronavirus ? Well, that was certainly the advice given in several parts of the UK.'"

Well, look into the agenda of Bill Gates and his plan to make millions from a vaccine, it would take too long on here to explain. Follow the money as they say.

However, seasonal flu kills many more than Covid-19 yet no one is talking about that.
650 000 people die yearly of a regular influenza, according to the WHO. So far, approximately 100 000 have died with Covid-19. Even the Italy numbers for Covid-19 are lower than regular influenza death rate for Italy.
Worldometer info illustrates the craze pre March 25, 2020 as regular influenza numbers soar far higher than Covid-19 in the same time span, approximately 230 000 died from malaria. No WHO, “pandemic expert” and billionaire Bill Gates or Western leader “pandemic” alarm over that.

In the same time span, 250 000 died from suicide. No alarm from the WHO on these numbers. Approximately 300 000 died in the same time span from traffic fatalities, 390 000 from HIV and 600 000 from alcohol.
As many as 1 100 000 died from smoking in the same time period. Why did not Bill Gates raise the alarm about that? 2 million died from cancer in the same period, and as much as 2.4 million from hunger.


The US numbers for yearly deaths due to regular flu are, as CNN reported in 2018 around 80 000 dead in the U.S. alone. Yet no one said a word, not even when we, as the RL community over here, were discussing the pro's and cons of allowing US and Canadian team and fans coming over here. Who knew???

Covid-19 has been written about over two billion times so far in the media. Ebola was mentioned 16 million times only. The media focus is extreme.
The fear of death from its grip has caused the biggest market crash in modern history. 

You haven't half got your figures skewed ??
100,000 so far died with Covid ?? There are just short of 500,000 global deaths so far and whilst the virus is just about under control in Europe, deaths globally are still rising.
Yes, "regular" flu ins a huge killer.
However, where do you think the numbers would be had half of the world not "locked down" and the virus been allowed to spread unchallenged ??
Perhaps you need to wait until India and Africa have started to control the virus before stating how "harmless" this thing is.

I totally agree about adding some context and there will no doubt be a review of what has been done well and what should have been done better.
However, I dont think that anyone can argue about the rate at which this virus can take hold.

Whether the virtual shutdown of the ecconomy is a price worth paying to try and save a few hundred thousand lives may be a discussion for another day and your views on this may depend on how you and your family and friends have been affected and there is one thing for certain here, deaths in all countries seem to be heavily understated, as the total deaths this year, compared to other "regular" years are massively higher than the Covid19 figures and it may well be that the numbers are double (or more) than are currently suggested ?

Please see previous post re figures relating to the reporting of Covid deaths, understated ? I think not. Also look into how much "funding" a USA doctor gets for ticking the covid box, you will be surprised.

As for the lockdown preventing infection. The figures in GB are little different from the Scandinavian model, even the architect of all this here in the UK, Professor Neil Ferguson has admitted in a Daily Telegraph article (buried away on page 7, that the "radical Scandinavian policy worked as well as the British policy of shutting down.
Do some research too into the now discredited computer model he used when predicting the spread of C19, you may be surprised.

"virtual shutdown of the economy is a price worth paying to try and save a few hundred thousand lives" You say, it won't, the deaths resulting from job losses, mental illness, suicides, delayed cancer diagnosis, treatment of this and other diseases will be incalculable in the years to come. You know that of course.

I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416
Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ?
I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses.

As for comparisons to Sweden, really ??

The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher.

I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken.
The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.

I find it hard to argue on this Miro when you start with the statement that this is a fake pandemic.
The very fact that so many countries are reporting deaths should show that it isn't made up. When was the last time China, US and Russia all agreed on something? It isn't a local government telling us fibs.

Even if everything you say was true (which it isn't) and we only took the actually tested cases as guaranteed, it would still be a pandemic.

But apart from everything else, trivialising something that is clearly killing people, is just not a sound minded thing to do in my opinion.
By all means bring your views on the moon landings but this is real life and death to real people, some of which are reading your posts. You should think about that.

[iand he has not been seen since [/i

No I don’t need to read anything. I’m a 50+ male and I remember how it used to be. Despite the corruption and almost every ism you can think existing in the police up until the millennium they still managed to fulfil what most ratepayers consider the lie core responsibility.

Yes there are grey areas of course there are and in some ways modern policing is exceptional especially when solving major crimes. I also accept that there were far more bad apples in the old days, I found that out myself after a boozy night when I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. Yet annoyed though I still am I would still on balance prefer it as it was. It may have got a bit tasty around Wakefield in the late 70’s but when you got home you were fairly sure that for the rest of the week you wouldn’t get robbed, your house wouldn’t get burgled, your car would be there in the morning. Most notably if you were being plagued by yobs in your area you knew one phone call would see the police firmly deal with it. Yes there were some areas that were exceptions but not many, now it’s almost anywhere.

Like it or not the police of the past had two things the modern police force has lost. Whose fault it is I’m open to ideas but what can’t be donors is that it’s happened and it will be very difficult to get back.

So what am I on about?

The honest British person used to respect the police. They saw them as there protectors against low life. These same people now se the police as soft and generally useless, more likely to support the criminal than the victim. Doesn’t matter how right or wrong they are it’s how the vast majority see it. The police though not totally to blame are still very much the authors of there own demise.

You simply stopped looking after decent folk, instead attempting to be mates with low life. If I see another policeman fawning over some foul mouthed thug rather than just manhandling him into a van I’ll scream.

There was a time In my younger years when I would always aid an officer, not now, now I feel id end up the one in custody. I hate to say it but now I’d just turn and walk away. Shocking I know but it’s your own fault, you’ve dumped your fan base instead courting popularity with the very people you should be closing down.

The tragedy is that criminals, especially the petty ones are just laughing at you. Trust me they view the average beat copper as a joke and I suspect they are right.

Start being policemen again, arrest baddies especially serial offenders and prosecute to the absolute limit. That is all you need to do to get the law abiding public back on side.

Who'd have known here in Wakefield we'd have all the top expert scientists on diseases, and that they'd all be members of this forum ?????

50+?

add the other 10

Well I got a chemistry set and doctor's set for Christmas!!!! I've now become Boris's official adviser.

Quote ="wrencat1873"I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416 Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ? I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses. As for comparisons to Sweden, really ?? The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher. I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken. The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.'" Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.

Quote ="wrencat1873"I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416 Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ? I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses. As for comparisons to Sweden, really ?? The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher. I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken. The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.'" Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.

"Moon landing" Whaaaaaa ???? Is that the best you can come up with PopTart. I have gone into quite some detail, quoted WHO, doctors, and this is your best argument??

Please point out the portions of my post that are "trivial" This is a discussion about "Politics and Pandemics" is it not? How about cutting out the insulting innuendoes. What was said earlier? "Am I going to go out and burn down 5G towers? I make little wonder so few people post on this board anymore. And I though you were one of the reasonable types. How wrong was I.

Look.
"Most people, well, a significant portion will not get this virus at all at any point in the epidemic which is going on for a long period of time. Of those who do, some will get the virus without even knowing it.

The will have the virus with no symptoms at all....asymptomatic carriage and we know that happens.
Of those who get the symptoms, the great majority, probably 80% will have a mild or moderate disease. Might be bad enough for them to have to go to bed for a few days, not bad enough for them to to have to go to a doctor.
An unfortunate minority will have to go to hospital and the a minority of those will up having to go to severe and critical care and some of those will sadly die.
But that's a minority...it's 1% or possibly even less than 1% and even in the highest risk groups this is significantly less than 20% i.e. even the great majority of people even the very highest groups if they catch this virus will not die."

I don't get why you can't see how ridiculous you allegations are though.
You haven't actually answered any of my points.
The death toll is massively higher than die of flu.
The death toll of tested cases is clearly into the pandemic levels
'Hundreds' of people protesting in Italy doesn't make the pandemic fake, it just means 'hundreds' of people don't like being told what to do.
WHO say it's a pandemic.

The best you can say on your evidence is that the numbers collected are not necessarily accurate but in no way is it fake. Actual people are dead.
I know two people who work on the Covid ward in Pinders. They think it's real. They worked their off trying to save lives, some they did many the couldn't.

I can't really understand your thought process.

So you are saying there is a pandemic then?
Disease spread world wide is the definition of a pandemic.

You are right on all those numbers you quote. It's just I'm not ok with 1% dieing. Or making the number bigger by spreading it.