Quote ="deeHell"This is one you quoted in an exchange we had after the referendum.'" So you're wreaking revenge for a grudge you've held for 3 years? Wow - I can only admire your determination and powers of recall. Quote There has been absolutely no correlation between hate crime and the Brexit vote. What we have is an increase in reported hate crime thanks to dubious sources that prompt for these reports like the discredited "Tell Mama" web site. Hate crime is a vague term that relies heavily on victim perception and the definition changes as more and more offenses fall under the definition, in theory offenses should increase. Racism acts as a comfort blanket for Remainers to convince themselves of their moral superiority.'" That's simply untrue - there is a plethora of evidence, from various sources - that hate crime has increased in recent years, even accounting for the increase in reporting; with some reports specifically identifying that within those figures, there has been a spike in hate crimes against mainland Europeans, which would have been practically unheard of until someone decided they were the enemy, and a large contingent of morons believed them. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... hate-crime https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... land-wales https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=ES%2FS006168%2F1 https://www.stophateuk.org/tag/brexit/ There's plenty of sources, so you can triangulate and compare - unless you're one of those people who is sick of experts, and believes that your opinion is better than my facts? For clarity - my original post wasn't about Brexit - it was about racism; linking it to the Brexit campaign was simply a reporting of facts as they have been presented in the public domain; I have made no suggestion that everyone who voted to leave is racist, nor do I believe that to be the case.

Quote ="deeHell"This is one you quoted in an exchange we had after the referendum.'" So you're wreaking revenge for a grudge you've held for 3 years? Wow - I can only admire your determination and powers of recall. Quote There has been absolutely no correlation between hate crime and the Brexit vote. What we have is an increase in reported hate crime thanks to dubious sources that prompt for these reports like the discredited "Tell Mama" web site. Hate crime is a vague term that relies heavily on victim perception and the definition changes as more and more offenses fall under the definition, in theory offenses should increase. Racism acts as a comfort blanket for Remainers to convince themselves of their moral superiority.'" That's simply untrue - there is a plethora of evidence, from various sources - that hate crime has increased in recent years, even accounting for the increase in reporting; with some reports specifically identifying that within those figures, there has been a spike in hate crimes against mainland Europeans, which would have been practically unheard of until someone decided they were the enemy, and a large contingent of morons believed them. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... hate-crime https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... land-wales https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=ES%2FS006168%2F1 https://www.stophateuk.org/tag/brexit/ There's plenty of sources, so you can triangulate and compare - unless you're one of those people who is sick of experts, and believes that your opinion is better than my facts? For clarity - my original post wasn't about Brexit - it was about racism; linking it to the Brexit campaign was simply a reporting of facts as they have been presented in the public domain; I have made no suggestion that everyone who voted to leave is racist, nor do I believe that to be the case.

Quote ="bren2k"So you're wreaking revenge for a grudge you've held for 3 years? Wow - I can only admire your determination and powers of recall. That's simply untrue - there is a plethora of evidence, from various sources - that hate crime has increased in recent years, even accounting for the increase in reporting; with some reports specifically identifying that within those figures, there has been a spike in hate crimes against mainland Europeans, which would have been practically unheard of until someone decided they were the enemy, and a large contingent of morons believed them. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... hate-crime https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... land-wales https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=ES%2FS006168%2F1 https://www.stophateuk.org/tag/brexit/ There's plenty of sources, so you can triangulate and compare - unless you're one of those people who is sick of experts, and believes that your opinion is better than my facts? For clarity - my original post wasn't about Brexit - it was about racism; linking it to the Brexit campaign was simply a reporting of facts as they have been presented in the public domain; I have made no suggestion that everyone who voted to leave is racist, nor do I believe that to be the case.'" Those quoted are nothing but politically motivated organisations whose whole intention is to keep weaponizing race for political ends. Reporting of these crimes doesn't equate to actual crime and convictions. Playing hard and fast with definitions will always get the results you desire from the data you collect. Our country is a very diverse and welcome society and don't subscribe to the narrative thats constructed that we are a racist society. Obviously pockets of racism exist on the fringes but them people are thankfully marginalised in society. Spiked and Spectator did excellent articles on this. https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/i ... -the-rise/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/1 ... ate-crime/ If people like yourself and many on the left think any talk of immigration is racist then we are miles apart on definitions. It only sounds like your trying to shut any debate down because they can't articulate a response to what I would call legitimate grievances.

Quote ="bren2k"So you're wreaking revenge for a grudge you've held for 3 years? Wow - I can only admire your determination and powers of recall. That's simply untrue - there is a plethora of evidence, from various sources - that hate crime has increased in recent years, even accounting for the increase in reporting; with some reports specifically identifying that within those figures, there has been a spike in hate crimes against mainland Europeans, which would have been practically unheard of until someone decided they were the enemy, and a large contingent of morons believed them. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... hate-crime https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... land-wales https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=ES%2FS006168%2F1 https://www.stophateuk.org/tag/brexit/ There's plenty of sources, so you can triangulate and compare - unless you're one of those people who is sick of experts, and believes that your opinion is better than my facts? For clarity - my original post wasn't about Brexit - it was about racism; linking it to the Brexit campaign was simply a reporting of facts as they have been presented in the public domain; I have made no suggestion that everyone who voted to leave is racist, nor do I believe that to be the case.'" Those quoted are nothing but politically motivated organisations whose whole intention is to keep weaponizing race for political ends. Reporting of these crimes doesn't equate to actual crime and convictions. Playing hard and fast with definitions will always get the results you desire from the data you collect. Our country is a very diverse and welcome society and don't subscribe to the narrative thats constructed that we are a racist society. Obviously pockets of racism exist on the fringes but them people are thankfully marginalised in society. Spiked and Spectator did excellent articles on this. https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/i ... -the-rise/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/1 ... ate-crime/ If people like yourself and many on the left think any talk of immigration is racist then we are miles apart on definitions. It only sounds like your trying to shut any debate down because they can't articulate a response to what I would call legitimate grievances.

Are you sure about that...?

You are not going to end this are you?

The topic is racism - I'm talking about racism; what's the problem?

I certainly am not racist, as anyone who knows me would substantiate, but I do believe in controlled immigration, as do many of the black and Asian communities.
There is a great danger of ‘mixing up ‘the two issues to suit particular agendas.

My comment was made when you both drifted to Brexit.

However, this is a forum about rugby and specifically Wakefield Trinity.
There are other forums for discussing this kind of stuff.

Following the Manchester Derby on Saturday I am convinced that this will never end, I'm a lot of things and some on here will probably be able to outline what I am but I'm more than satisfied at night knowing I'm not a racist and couldn't care less who puts a Trinity shirt on.

Football is utterly hypocritical.
Racism has no place in any society but, football rivalries are largely built on hate (of any kind) and whilst not wanting to make light of racism, some of the stuff that goes on between "fans" IMO is equally as bad and is seen as "part of the game".
Even at kids games, the abuse of officials etc is unbelievable.

Of course, it won't. This is what the right-on brigade don't get, so convinced are they by their self-perceived sense of moral superiority and thus their ability to redeem the irredeemable.

Let's get this straight, most racists are just idiots articulating their frustration at their own crapness by belittling others. That sort of racism can be moderated, not got rid of but using societies best efforts it can be restrained. It will never go completely and will always be there to be exploited, human nature end of.

Some, however, are not and these are the ones who beat the anti-racists on every level. They know exactly what they are doing, they know it's morally wrong, they know it kills innocent people and they just don't care. They never will care, they will never be redeemed, they just love to hate it's how they are it where they draw power from and some are very clever with it.

This is why I defend the rights of bigots to say whatever they want so long as it's within the law. I chuffing well want to know what these creeps really think, I don't want to wake up one morning and find these people in power because nobody knew they were swine! I know this from personal experience, I worked with a guy once, he was an absolutely lovely bloke in every way but one, he was as you might have guessed a quite vicious racist. Nowadays because he was quite smart and because things have changed he'd have never expressed himself and I'd have probably never known and I'm pretty sure I'd have got involved in a much deeper friendship before I found out. Terrifies me what I may have innocently got myself involved in.

I'm not suggesting we let people get away with monkey chants etc. What I am saying is that within the law let these people say what they feel the need to say, then as with all crackpots ignore them as we seem quite capable of doing with most religions. Keep the pressure on the authorities to do their job and punish where the law demands, let the educators educate (within reason) that any form of discrimination is wrong. Above all though, stop feeding them with publicity, I know it's hard but there has to be a point where black players ignore isolated incidents as to do otherwise only benefits the perpetrator, I know that's controversial but its probably sensible, but then again I'm not black!. More obviously stop the nonsense about apologising for historical racism, we didn't do that, it's not our fault and it only feeds resentment amongst those who are already borderline racist, don't give them the push. There are grey areas in life and compromises, unfortunately, have to be made, hunting down every single racist won't work, for everyone you martyr ten more will be created, history teaches us that every time.

It really is a stinker and I fully accept I may be wrong on some issues but I can only say it as I see it. As an aside most chimps have white faces.

A well thought out and said statement https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/why-ar ... -curious-m

A well thought out and said statement https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/why-ar ... -curious-m

Racism shouldn't have to be tolerated by anyone, in any way, shape or form, but I do think it is just the minority.

Unfortunately, and I read back to the comments made earlier by Beagle, there is a fine line between racism and controlled immigration. Some people out there believe you to be a racist for believing in controls put in place.

I do agree with him that there needs to be some kind of controlled immigration, for all kind of logistical reasons. Our population has increased by around 8 million in the past 20 years, compared to 2 million in the 20 years prior.

The scenes in the Manchester derby were awful, and was reminiscent of how it was in the 70's.

Fortunately, incidents do tend to be more isolated within our sport, but I have heard it in the past.

Adding to the point, it can be a two way thing too, I know of someone who was working for a company, where the environment became, in his words toxic. Over 50% of the workforce were foreign, and the final straw for him was racial abuse he suffered.

As an ‘oldie’, now 68, I really resent the assumption that I am racist. Do not forget it was my generation who really ‘set the ball rolling’ with the campaigns against racism both here and in the US.
The ‘flower power’, ‘hippy generation’ or whatever one terms us really stood for equality in all respects.
Yes there were then the sections of society that were racist and often violent, but that applies to today also.