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| Freedom of movement within the EU works both ways. About 1.2 million Brits live in other EU countries. About 3 million other EU citizens live in the UK so, on the face of it, we're getting the rough end of the stick. Except - those immigrants make a net contribution to this country. They mostly work and pay tax and don't "cost" us anything. The world's changed - people want to be able to move around and live and work in other places and millions of people are forced to move. They'll move whether we like it or not and putting a metaphorical wall around our little island won't hake us happy or successful.
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| Quote ="The Avenger"No ones said that immigration caused the infrastructures of the U.K. to break, they didn't, as you say and ideological systematic underfunding has done that.
However when everything is stretched beyond its ability to cope, a net migration of 300,000 per year can not be absorbed.
We can not control our borders, free gangway across Europe is a prerequisite of being in the EU.'"
As has already been mentioned more than once if the UK wants to avoid going bust following a Brexit then it will need to sign up to a trade deal with the EU given thats where 50% of our exports go. A prerequisite of this is signing up to the free market deal and accepting their terms and conditions, one of which is free movement of workers. So immigration will not change either way unless we really do want to try and go it alone then we can all sit back and watch companies fail left, right and centre.
All the political parties up and down the country bar the one-trick ponies that are UKIP and a few Tory posh boys trying to get their careers back on track are backing staying in for a reason, it is better having a seat at the table and a say in what happens than being outside banging on the window and being ignored. All financial institutions, the office for national statistics, Bank of England, The Treasury, Institute for Fiscal Studies etc, point out that the country will be worse off outside and as such everybody will suffer.
The Brexiteers have come up with nothing to counter this, the only two bits of 'fact' they have tried is that immigration would come down and that it costs us £350 million a week to be in the EU. And BOTH pieces of information are INCORRECT! They have come up with nothing that tells me that we would better off outside, in fact their only answer to any data put out is Boris Johnson doing that ridiculous incomprehensable noise follow by saying no that won't happen. No facts, no information, just head in the sand denial from people more interested in winning this to further their own political career than whats actually best for the country.
In no way shape or form has anyone from the leave campaign come up with anything to convince me that change is for the best, in fact exactly the opposite has happened. The EU is far from perfect and does need further reform but for this country to benefit we have to be in it to do something about it. So i'm voting in, for me the risk of leaving is too high and would bring no particular benfits anyway.
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| Well if you vote for it you will get it all ,more mass immigration ,the euro, a United States of Europe ,and don't think you will get a chance to vote against it all you won't .
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| Quote ="roverman"Well if you vote for it you will get it all ,more mass immigration ,the euro, a United States of Europe ,and don't think you will get a chance to vote against it all you won't .'"
I've heard the same argument from small minded people for many years.....
1960's - Enoch Powell.
1990's - European parliament - will be a United States of Europe within five years.
1999 - Euro - we will be forced to join
Here we are many years later.....many immigrants making a significant contribution to the culture and economy; still no United States of Europe; and we are still not in the Euro!!
I think we might get a chance to decide if we want to join the Euro or become part of the USE don't you? After all you are getting a chance to vote now.
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| Don't call me small minded I'm not ,just concerned where my country's heading.
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| Quote ="roverman"Don't call me small minded I'm not ,just concerned where my country's heading.'"
No you appear to have already decided where it is going, based on the sum total of sod all facts!
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| Quote ="roverman"Don't call me small minded I'm not ,just concerned where my country's heading.'"
But all of your predictions of doom are false, and have proven to be false since they were first used - as has been pointed out.
I do understand why so many people have fears about immigration - but it appears that a lot of those fears are fuelled by misinformation, deliberate dog-whistle politics and a wilful misrepresentation of the facts. Migration has changed the UK - for sure - but there is no data to suggest that people migrate here to claim benefits; there is no system which allows migrants to get social housing ahead of UK applicants; and there's absolutely no data to back up the claim that migrant workers put extra strain on the NHS - on the contrary, since most of them are here to work, they tend to be young males, who have very little recourse to the NHS - but they do pay NIC, which funds it.
This feels like one of the most undemocratic exercises in democracy I've ever seen - because great swathes of the country will vote, with no real idea of the facts behind the choice they're being asked to make; and I don't say that to be patronising - I say it because both sides of the campaign have adopted very negative strategies.
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| Quote ="bren2k"
I do understand why so many people have fears about immigration - but it appears that a lot of those fears are fuelled by misinformation, deliberate dog-whistle politics and a wilful misrepresentation of the facts. Migration has changed the UK - for sure - but there is no data to suggest that people migrate here to claim benefits; there is no system which allows migrants to get social housing ahead of UK applicants; and there's absolutely no data to back up the claim that migrant workers put extra strain on the NHS - on the contrary, since most of them are here to work, they tend to be young males, who have very little recourse to the NHS - but they do pay NIC, which funds it.
This feels like one of the most undemocratic exercises in democracy I've ever seen - because great swathes of the country will vote, with no real idea of the facts behind the choice they're being asked to make; and I don't say that to be patronising - I say it because both sides of the campaign have adopted very negative strategies.'"
Spot on. It also seems to me that immigration has become too big an issue with some people. Being part of the EU is about lots more than just immigration.
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| Quote ="sixtogo"All financial institutions, the office for national statistics, Bank of England, The Treasury, Institute for Fiscal Studies etc, point out that the country will be worse off outside and as such everybody will suffer.
.'"
All frightened to death of losing their places on the gravy train. EU is jobs and money for the boys at the top table and they don't give a monkey about having us at the bottom of the pile squeezed and milked all round by every Tom Dick and Ali eager to get to this side of the channel.
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| Quote ="Sacred Cow"No you appear to have already decided where it is going, based on the sum total of sod all facts!'"
You've clearly decided how marvelous the EU is based on politicians lies & media bias all who have a vested interest in this unaccountable gravy train.
Roverman is living in the real world and wants a better future for our country, it's such a shame that some don't have the faith that we can have a brighter future without the shackles of Brussels. Listening to Cameron & Osbourne in that B&Q press conference the other day was an all time low in propaganda and for the staff to be then banned from speaking to the media, where do we live North Korea? Shocking scare mongering on a whole new level, just makes you wonder what package Cameron has been offered in the EU when he steps down.
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| Yes I bet he believes the BBC is impartial and that wally Lewis is still coming.
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| Don't think anyone is saying the EU is perfect, or even anywhere near close. The fact remains though that by being inside the EU, we have the opportunity to Veto or lobby for things that are for/against our interests.
Otherwise, we are just a small nation, producing nothing sat on the peripheries, while the major trade blocs conduct world affairs taking no notice of our opinion.
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| Quote ="TrinityIHC"Don't think anyone is saying the EU is perfect, or even anywhere near close. The fact remains though that by being inside the EU, we have the opportunity to Veto or lobby for things that are for/against our interests.
Otherwise, we are just a small nation, producing nothing sat on the peripheries, while the major trade blocs conduct world affairs taking no notice of our opinion.'"
Producing nothing and them two numties who lead the major parties want to stay in when it's their parties that between them have devastated the back bone of this once great nation. We are at everybody's mercy I'm afraid when it comes to bargaining power. Get out, stop sending our money to god knows where and let's see how we go, can't be worse........... can it
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| Quote ="Big lads mate"Producing nothing
and them two numties who lead the major parties want to stay in when it's their parties that between them have devastated the back bone of this once great nation. We are at everybody's mercy I'm afraid when it comes to bargaining power. Get out, stop sending our money to god knows where and let's see how we go, can't be worse........... can it
'"
And that is the thing, either way it's a gamble, so you think things can't be worse outside, well take a look it's raining.
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Freedom of movement within the EU works both ways. About 1.2 million Brits live in other EU countries.'"
Good for them, but they've voted with their feet and left so why should I be forced to live here under laws I don't agree with.
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| Quote ="The Avenger"Good for them, but they've voted with their feet and left so why should I be forced to live here under laws I don't agree with.'"
Nobody's forcing you to live here.
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| Quote ="TrinityIHC"Don't think anyone is saying the EU is perfect, or even anywhere near close. The fact remains though that by being inside the EU, we have the opportunity to Veto or lobby for things that are for/against our interests.
Otherwise, we are just a small nation, producing nothing sat on the peripheries, while the major trade blocs conduct world affairs taking no notice of our opinion.'"
What! The fifth biggest economy in the world. Are you seriously saying we would have no clout. I think you have been listening to Dave and his chums too much. Everybody keeps harping on about the exports to the euro zone but everybody forgets that we have a trade deficit with them,so they sell more to us than we to them. They would still need us at least as much as we need them. Also what about the trade deals they block us from doing with the rest of the world because they don't approve. People are naive in the extreme if they believe all the crap from these economists preaching doom and gloom, it's all coming from Dave's spin doctors. What next plagues of locusts and death of all the first born!
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Nobody's forcing you to live here.'"
Lovely. Get rid of all the indigenous population . mind you we will have to leave soon to make room for the rest of the world!
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| Quote ="The Avenger"Good for them, but they've voted with their feet and left so why should I be forced to live here under laws I don't agree with.'"
Laws such as....?
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| Quote ="The Avenger"Good for them, but they've voted with their feet and left so why should I be forced to live here under laws I don't agree with.'"
You say that you dont want laws that you haven't voted for but, it happens all the time in this country and even more so in Scotland (although partial devolution has probably improved this slightly)
Living in Yorkshire, where the majority of the population (who actually vote) historically, vote Labour but, quite often live under a Tory government or people in Southern England vote Tory but, occasionally have to live under a Labour government.
I certainly didn't vote for the Poll Tax but, we certainly had it imposed on us, thankfully this changed.
We dont always get what we want and although Europe has many faults, so does Britain.
I mentioned in an earlier post that, the population of Scotland, who were very close to becoming an independent country just a few months ago, may well be the deciding factor in the vote to stay in or leave Europe, with SNP policy being to stay and yet they dont want to be governed by Westminster, which appears quite bizarre.
The thing that scares me about exit, is the economic shock that will occur plus, the absolute unknown, with regards our future relationship with our closest neighbors.
I've listened to plenty of politicians (from different parties) and not one of them can say with any clarity or certainty, what life will be like on the outside.
Now, I like an occasional gamble but, for me, this issue it too much of a step into the unknown.
If somebody could stand up and speak honestly and openly about what the likely outcomes were, maybe I would feel differently but, currently, all I hear is political nonsense and peoples wishes but, wishes wont improve the economy for me or my children.
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| Quote ="wotsupcas"What! The fifth biggest economy in the world. Are you seriously saying we would have no clout. I think you have been listening to Dave and his chums too much. Everybody keeps harping on about the exports to the euro zone but everybody forgets that we have a trade deficit with them,so they sell more to us than we to them. They would still need us at least as much as we need them. Also what about the trade deals they block us from doing with the rest of the world because they don't approve. People are naive in the extreme if they believe all the crap from these economists preaching doom and gloom, it's all coming from Dave's spin doctors. What next plagues of locusts and death of all the first born!'"
5th biggest GDP 9th PPP
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| Quote ="wotsupcas"What! The fifth biggest economy in the world. Are you seriously saying we would have no clout. I think you have been listening to Dave and his chums too much. Everybody keeps harping on about the exports to the euro zone but everybody forgets that we have a trade deficit with them,so they sell more to us than we to them. They would still need us at least as much as we need them. Also what about the trade deals they block us from doing with the rest of the world because they don't approve. People are naive in the extreme if they believe all the crap from these economists preaching doom and gloom, it's all coming from Dave's spin doctors. What next plagues of locusts and death of all the first born!'"
And then there are the people who are so naive they believe the imbecile that is bumbling Boris and think walking away from our biggest trading partner won't have any ramifications. They sell to us thanks to the tax breaks and lack of criss border red tape that being in the EU brings. Remove that then then all of a sudden it gets easier and cheaper to trade with other EU countries rather than ourselves. And thats not withstanding the big corperations based here that will move to other parts of europe to take advantage of the breaks we can no longer offer. Throw in a likely new scottish referendum to shrink the UK further and all of a sudden that economy size doesn't look as big does it?
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| Quote ="Kevs Head"Nobody's forcing you to live here.'"
I don't know, voting to leave will probably make it harder to emigrate to a european country.
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| What about all the red tape that's imposed on small businesses by the Eu .
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| It's a few years now since Romania & Bulgaria joined, what have those countries contributed into the EU? Soon Albania Turkey Serbia etc can join, and start milking the money pot giving nothing back. It's going too far letting too many countries with poor economies join.
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