|
![](images/sitelogos/2022-33.jpg) |
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"Its a work around. The ST can not directly invest into Trinity but by using their influence to boost 1873 they will be rewarded by being given a seat on the board. Thats the way I read it anyway.'"
Wow thats tenuous!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="TRB"We do have the option to buy a block of shares in the Trusts name, just not as individuals. We felt that it was unlikely that we would raise a sufficient sum to make this work.
The idea of linking it to club 1873 has been run past our parent organisation - Supporters Direct - and they are comfortable with it providing we get the place on the BoD.
In essence we:
a) don't have to cough up a cash lump sum
b) avoid risking a 'Bradford' situation
c) bring in ongoing funding to the club - whilst we keep the membership up, we keep our place on the BoD
d) if all fails - we stop the funding
e) all those joining have a chance to win prizes
f) the more that join = the bigger the prizes
We gave this some thought, but none of us could see any major negatives in the idea - now we just need to get the word out and start to build those numbers!
'"
You have to concede its fairly contrived though.
I can see how you could encourage people to join club 1873 and have an effect there, but surely people should join for the reasons that are inherent in the benefits of club 1873, not just to get a member of the ST on the board.
Surely if the supporters wanted that they only need to join the ST and then perhaps there would be enough people to provide enough money to buy the block of shares.
Equally i would add that if MC wants the expertise of anyone from the ST on the board he could just allow it without the need of any caveat?
I just can't see how any of this adds up.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 21329 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="kinleycat"You have to concede its fairly contrived though.
I can see how you could encourage people to join club 1873 and have an effect there, but surely people should join for the reasons that are inherent in the benefits of club 1873, not just to get a member of the ST on the board.
Surely if the supporters wanted that they only need to join the ST and then perhaps there would be enough people to provide enough money to buy the block of shares.
Equally i would add that if MC wants the expertise of anyone from the ST on the board he could just allow it without the need of any caveat?
I just can't see how any of this adds up.'"
I tend to agree.
I like the initiative but I just can't see how it will work.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 13916 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2006 | 18 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Seems pretty simple to me. 1000 extra people sign up to 1873 and the fans get a representative on the board. Indirect investment if you will. I don't think there is any need to dissect it. It's an generous offer from the board so allow supporters to have an influence on their club.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 5507 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2017 | Nov 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="PopTart"I tend to agree.
I like the initiative but I just can't see how it will work.'"
Agreed. If MC is happy will a supporters rep on the board to get their take on things why not just invite the trust chairman (or whoever) on now? To come up with a plan that it will only happen if the trust manages to more than double the club 1873 membership seems a way of being able to say, 'well you had your chance and failed, tough'.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 21329 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"Seems pretty simple to me. 1000 extra people sign up to 1873 and the fans get a representative on the board. Indirect investment if you will. I don't think there is any need to dissect it. It's an generous offer from the board so allow supporters to have an influence on their club.'"
I'm ok with the financial side of it. I just can't see what the fan's rep will offer.
Will they represent me personally any more than MC does now?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"Seems pretty simple to me. 1000 extra people sign up to 1873 and the fans get a representative on the board. Indirect investment if you will. I don't think there is any need to dissect it. It's an generous offer from the board so allow supporters to have an influence on their club.'"
If the fans want a representative on the board why not join the ST?
1000 extra club 1873 is far from simple, after all we have only encouraged 200 to join the ST (i think thats right?)
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 10926 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2021 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Theboyem"Agreed. If MC is happy will a supporters rep on the board to get their take on things why not just invite the trust chairman (or whoever) on now? To come up with a plan that it will only happen if the trust manages to more than double the club 1873 membership seems a way of being able to say, 'well you had your chance and failed, tough'.'"
Because being a member of the BoD is a privilege most earn through direct investment. We don't have that cash - would you give us it to buy shares? - but we can work as field troops for the club in generating more support for club 1873 - which is producing dividends already in the young players coming through at our club.
Win win win all the way!
Without someone on the BoD, are we happy to let the club continue in its own direction and then live with the consequences if it all goes pear-shaped once again (not that there are signs of that currently). If you support the idea of the Trust and its prupose, then please support this campaign - you'll be helping the club at the same time and, in particular, the junior development side we all wish to see flourish!
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 7427 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Isn't it simply that most clubs see the lottery side of running a club as a very good, reliable income stream, apart from special circumstances people tend not to throw out, I'd see it as a means to an end, more regular money to the club, one person sitting on the board (who inevitably will end up as secretive as any other board member) so really nothing changes apart from more income.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 10926 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2021 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="kinleycat"If the fans want a representative on the board why not join the ST?
1000 extra club 1873 is far from simple, after all we have only encouraged 200 to join the ST (i think thats right?)'"
But we have not pushed the ST as much as we could / should to date as we seemed to be going nowhere under AG/JE. Now we have a real chance to become involved and we will work to push those numbers higher from hereon in.
We are not limited to ST members either, we will be working with the club to push this out to all last years season ticket holders.
The numbers being targeted are approximately at the level they peaked at previously - therefore this is far from an impossible task - tough maybe, but not impossible.
You will see changes in the Trust and the way we operate over the coming months - trying to give some value back for membership.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 10926 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2021 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="JINJER"Isn't it simply that most clubs see the lottery side of running a club as a very good, reliable income stream, apart from special circumstances people tend not to throw out, I'd see it as a means to an end, more regular money to the club, one person sitting on the board (who inevitably will end up as secretive as any other board member) so really nothing changes apart from more income.'"
So you don't think that we would have been able to see the position the club was heading for under AG if we had someone on the BoD?
Yes, the person sitting on the BoD will have certain 'responsibilities' but that includes ensuring the protection of the interests of supporters. As long as I can remember supporters have considered themselves to be the 'poor relation' at the club. We can't guarantee that we can change everything, but we would be in there trying - on our behalf!
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 1886 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2015 | Sep 2015 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="JINJER"Isn't it simply that most clubs see the lottery side of running a club as a very good, reliable income stream, apart from special circumstances people tend not to throw out, I'd see it as a means to an end, more regular money to the club, one person sitting on the board (who inevitably will end up as secretive as any other board member) so really nothing changes apart from more income.'"
Must admit jinjer that also worries me. If we ever get to that position it will be an interesting dilemma.
Personally I would like the person to spend no more than one season and preferably less on the board
followed by quite a long period before they could go back on.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 7665 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2003 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Jun 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="jack in the box"Must admit jinjer that also worries me. If we ever get to that position it will be an interesting dilemma.
Personally I would like the person to spend no more than one season and preferably less on the board
followed by quite a long period before they could go back on.'"
What if that person was doing a fantastic job for both supporters and the progression of the club?
Would you end all that because their year of tenure was up?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 10926 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2021 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="jack in the box"Must admit jinjer that also worries me. If we ever get to that position it will be an interesting dilemma.
Personally I would like the person to spend no more than one season and preferably less on the board
followed by quite a long period before they could go back on.'"
The Trust generally works in 2 year cycles, but yes, it should be rotated and there should be a 'fallow' period.
The representative will report back to the ST committee on a regular basis.
The club will have the option of 'veto' in the case that there is someone put forward that they feel they can't work with.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="JINJER"Isn't it simply that most clubs see the lottery side of running a club as a very good, reliable income stream, apart from special circumstances people tend not to throw out, I'd see it as a means to an end, more regular money to the club, one person sitting on the board (who inevitably will end up as secretive as any other board member) so really nothing changes apart from more income.'"
I completely agree with the additional revenue jinj, i just don't see it as 1) being possible 2) being value for money or 3) unachievable by any other means.
As i said initially I'm all for the extra income (that is a no brainer for a club like ours) but 1000 extra club 1873 members is huge more than double what we already have, and we already have the ones that wanted in - so doubly difficult IMO.
1000 x £2 x 52 weeks is £104,000.00 according to my calculator, if an invester came in with a fraction of this amount of long term investment, I'm sure they would be on the board, i dont think this has been though about, if anything this is being massively undersold.
A 1000 extra ST member i would say deserves a voice, why not this?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15521 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2020 | May 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Jesus Christ - some people on here have the permanent demeanour of a bloke who's dropped a quid and found tuppence!
How on earth can a scheme that a) massively increases the money available for youth development and b) finally gets a supporters rep on the BoD, be seen as anything other than a positive thing?!
If the ST had half a million quid in the bank, I'm sure they would buy shares and achieve a seat in the normal way, but since very few people could be d to join, they haven't; ergo, they can't.
Workaround it may be, but I'm quite content that it achieves a win-win; properly administered, packaging 1873 and ST membership is a positive thing. Fair do's.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="TRB"But we have not pushed the ST as much as we could / should to date as we seemed to be going nowhere under AG/JE. Now we have a real chance to become involved and we will work to push those numbers higher from hereon in.
We are not limited to ST members either, we will be working with the club to push this out to all last years season ticket holders.
The numbers being targeted are approximately at the level they peaked at previously - therefore this is far from an impossible task - tough maybe, but not impossible.
You will see changes in the Trust and the way we operate over the coming months - trying to give some value back for membership.'"
I dont think that members have not received value, i think you all do a fine job, i just don't see it as anything more than a supporters club - and a good one at that.
I joined up on day one, certificate number eight but i joined up as a supporter, i fail to see what (for example) the ST could have done had they had a place on the board prior to our last collapse.
I know you may see it differently, and i mean no disrespect at all, i just can't see why?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 10926 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2021 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="kinleycat"I completely agree with the additional revenue jinj, i just don't see it as 1) being possible 2) being value for money or 3) unachievable by any other means.
As i said initially I'm all for the extra income (that is a no brainer for a club like ours) but 1000 extra club 1873 members is huge more than double what we already have, and we already have the ones that wanted in - so doubly difficult IMO.
1000 x £2 x 52 weeks is £104,000.00 according to my calculator, if an invester came in with a fraction of this amount of long term investment, I'm sure they would be on the board, i dont think this has been though about, if anything this is being massively undersold.
A 1000 extra ST member i would say deserves a voice, why not this?'"
We have lived and breathed these proposals for months, and yes, we understand the values involved.
1873 NEEDS to be 2,000 members to be viable in the long term (after administration costs etc). This way the club get something - without the need for capital - and it will hopefully be ongoing and to all our benefit.
1,000 ST members = £10k max (after concessions and legal expenses etc). It's a tidy sum, but small compared to what other directors put in. Our intention long term would still be to convert that to shares where we can, but in the meantime we think it best to run with this.
We are not in control here, we can suggest and discuss, but Michael has the last say as he owns the vast majority of shares.
I am genuinely struggling with the negativity on here after all the hard work put in. If we'd had this offer 2.5 years ago we may not be in the mess we are!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="bren2k"Jesus Christ - some people on here have the permanent demeanour of a bloke who's dropped a quid and found tuppence!
How on earth can a scheme that a) massively increases the money available for youth development and b) finally gets a supporters rep on the BoD, be seen as anything other than a positive thing?!
If the ST had half a million quid in the bank, I'm sure they would buy shares and achieve a seat in the normal way, but since very few people could be d to join, they haven't; ergo, they can't.
Workaround it may be, but I'm quite content that it achieves a win-win; properly administered, packaging 1873 and ST membership is a positive thing. Fair do's.'"
I'll grasp the nettle as a tuppence finder.
increased revenue - no brainer, why should it be linked to a place on the board? I see no common denominator between club 1873 and the ST.
If the ST had half a million in the bank it would have earned its right to be on the board because it had status, something due to low numbers it lacks now, sadly.
At risk of soundink like a recently departed poster, apologies for having an opinion! ![Confused icon_confused.gif](//www.rlfans.com/images/smilies//icon_confused.gif) (just not meant so sanctimoniously)
Certainly dont want to derail anyones efforts, I'll leave it there as being unnecessarily negative or perceived to be at least serves no puropse, but I'm out.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 9974 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2019 | Feb 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="TRB"We have lived and breathed these proposals for months, and yes, we understand the values involved.
1873 NEEDS to be 2,000 members to be viable in the long term (after administration costs etc). This way the club get something - without the need for capital - and it will hopefully be ongoing and to all our benefit.
1,000 ST members = £10k max (after concessions and legal expenses etc). It's a tidy sum, but small compared to what other directors put in. Our intention long term would still be to convert that to shares where we can, but in the meantime we think it best to run with this.
We are not in control here, we can suggest and discuss, but Michael has the last say as he owns the vast majority of shares.
I am genuinely struggling with the negativity on here after all the hard work put in. If we'd had this offer 2.5 years ago we may not be in the mess we are!'"
Fair enough, i don't want to knock your hard work.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 1196 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Sep 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="TRB"So you don't think that we would have been able to see the position the club was heading for under AG if we had someone on the BoD?!'"
Wasn't MC on the board and had been claimed that things were kept from him? If it was easy enough for AG & JE to "hide things" as has been previously alluded to then why would it be any harder to hide things from a single fan?
I agree with the sentiment that clubs need money and the lottery is a great way of doing it, but I can completely understand the questioning/caution of some of the previous posters.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 5507 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2017 | Nov 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="TRB"Because being a member of the BoD is a privilege most earn through direct investment. We don't have that cash - would you give us it to buy shares? - but we can work as field troops for the club in generating more support for club 1873 - which is producing dividends already in the young players coming through at our club.
Win win win all the way!
Without someone on the BoD, are we happy to let the club continue in its own direction and then live with the consequences if it all goes pear-shaped once again (not that there are signs of that currently). If you support the idea of the Trust and its prupose, then please support this campaign - you'll be helping the club at the same time and, in particular, the junior development side we all wish to see flourish!'"
I'm already a member of both but I genuinely think you are going to struggle to double the membership. An extra thousand seems quite high to me and comes accross as trying to make it more difficult than it needs to be. For me they either want a fans voice on the board or not, although obviously the extra imcome would be welcomed. But having to do the donkeywork to raise over 100k seems a little steep, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that share packages could be bought for half that amount?
As for the clubs power of veto, if the scheme works (and i hope it does) then the club should accept whoever the trust proposes. They have raised the money, they should say who gets to go on. If that person ruffles a few feathers on the fans behalfthen tough, having a yes man on there will make no difference whatsoever. If a businessman rocked up the money, was accepted onto the board and then started stirring things up a bit they couldn't just turn round and say go away we are not dealing with you. So why should the trusts position be any different? I doubt the trusts commitee would propose a total lunatic to go on the board but the point remains, it should be their choice and not dictated to by the board.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 21329 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| That's the crux of it for me though TRB. I don't mind taking the discussion off line if you wish but it's the board rep part that I don't get.
As an example. Segregation. I have views on it, but there are a lot of people who have the opposite view.
When it comes to discussing in the board meeting, how will my opinion be represented? Are we going to vote every time, or is the the rep going to make his/her own call?
and also where will the loyalty lie, to the ST or to the board? What happens when a subject comes up that the board don't want to be discussed outside the room yet it is something that affects the fans. Which way will they fall?
It makes a difference if they are representing me.
I hope I am not coming across as negative as, like I said before, the principle of what is being planned could be massive for the club, but there are somethings I'd like to understand better before I back it personally
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 5507 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2017 | Nov 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="kinleycat"I'll grasp the nettle as a tuppence finder.
increased revenue - no brainer, why should it be linked to a place on the board? I see no common denominator between club 1873 and the ST.
If the ST had half a million in the bank it would have earned its right to be on the board because it had status, something due to low numbers it lacks now, sadly.
At risk of soundink like a recently departed poster, apologies for having an opinion! icon_confused.gif (just not meant so sanctimoniously)
Certainly dont want to derail anyones efforts, I'll leave it there as being unnecessarily negative or perceived to be at least serves no puropse, but I'm out.'"
I agree with your point and the part highlighted is a salient point. The arguments that take place on this board show the levels of differing opinions that our fans have. And away from the world of rlfans and in the real world it is probably even worse! I struggle to see how a trust with just 200 members can represent a cross section of the fans, it surely needs to be at least five times that. Its this that needs pushing, maybe alongside the club 1873 scheme. Make it worthwhile to join by offering incentives maybe but I would think increasing the numbers of the ST is vital for it to have any kind of real influence if it manages to get to the top table.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 594 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Apr 2014 | Apr 2014 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Seems to me some people have worked their socks off here to negotiate something and all others can do is be obstructive and do their utmost to teasle out problems.
Problems ,which of course, always occur as something new is developing.
Get behind it , deal with problems as they arise, rather than dismiss it out of hand.
If it isn't given a go we will always wonder' what if ?'
I cannot see how there is anything to lose.
|
|
|
![](images/sitelogos/2022-33.jpg) |
|