[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":2bmtzqoz]Off the top of my head I can't think of one forward that played against us last season that would be worth a punt. Doro at Bradford looked decent but he's at Hull KR now.[/quote:2bmtzqoz] I thought Doro was poor. He ran hard but made zero post contact metres and got folded in the tackle. He won’t be SL ready for a couple years but I don’t rate him despite the media hype. Surprisingly, there was a forward who played us a few times for different teams out on loan. Had a good pair of hands too. Think it was Sammy Kibula.

I take your point, but I can’t remember Wigan rotating through many props. Byrne, Thompson, Havard, Dupree, Hill, and Cooper for a handful of games before he got injured. They have Eseh, Makin, and Chan too but I can’t remember any of them playing for Wigan last year. As Trojan often says, we should only sign players who would improve our squad. We’ve got Atoni, McMeeken, Rodwell, Uele, Vagana, Bain, Shaw. Now Chris Hill would certainly improve our squad for a year - his play the ball speed and wrestle is still up there with the best - but that would probably prevent Bain and Shaw getting game time. Singleton? I honestly don’t think he’s as good a player as our first five options. Runs and tackles hard but makes some poor decisions both sides of the ball. What is propping? Hate (love) to bring it up again, but as I see it in the modern game there’s no difference between a prop and a loose forward. I understand that 30 years ago a loose was a dynamic, hardworking, ball handling forward. And 10 years ago a loose became a prop but with good hands who organised other forwards. But now (with a few exceptions like Oledzski and Walmsley) 8,10 and 13 have the same skillset. No SL team should have a prop who can’t set up a play or tip the ball out the back accurately. If Cozza, Bain, or Pitts plays prop, and Rodwell or McMeeken plays 13, you wouldn’t notice apart from at kickoffs. Here for the debate!

I guess out Champ pickup project is Jayden Myers. I didn’t see any standout props last year. I saw some really good hardworking Championship props (Roman Dixon for Dewsbury - signed for Fax, Lambert Belmas at Toulouse, Titus Gwaze at Sheffield) but they all have their limits

[*][quote="Butcher":at4di76n]I take your point, but I can’t remember Wigan rotating through many props. Byrne, Thompson, Havard, Dupree, Hill, and Cooper for a handful of games before he got injured. They have Eseh, Makin, and Chan too but I can’t remember any of them playing for Wigan last year. As Trojan often says, we should only sign players who would improve our squad. We’ve got Atoni, McMeeken, Rodwell, Uele, Vagana, Bain, Shaw. Now Chris Hill would certainly improve our squad for a year - his play the ball speed and wrestle is still up there with the best - but that would probably prevent Bain and Shaw getting game time. Singleton? I honestly don’t think he’s as good a player as our first five options. Runs and tackles hard but makes some poor decisions both sides of the ball. What is propping? Hate (love) to bring it up again, but as I see it in the modern game there’s no difference between a prop and a loose forward. I understand that 30 years ago a loose was a dynamic, hardworking, ball handling forward. And 10 years ago a loose became a prop but with good hands who organised other forwards. But now (with a few exceptions like Oledzski and Walmsley) 8,10 and 13 have the same skillset. No SL team should have a prop who can’t set up a play or tip the ball out the back accurately. If Cozza, Bain, or Pitts plays prop, and Rodwell or McMeeken plays 13, you wouldn’t notice apart from at kickoffs. Here for the debate![/quote:at4di76n] You forgot Mago, Ellis and Walters too. In a salary capped sport to have 11 players who can play prop in your squad was seen as very unusual. Byrne, Dupree and Mago were dropped for significant periods and Cooper injured for most of the season. I think teams carry props that are more middles these days but there are still out and out props out there and most teams carry at least 1 or 2. Uele and Atoni are Props, not middles. Fafita was a prop, Singleton and Hill are props not middles. I’d say a middle is capable of bigger minutes but lacks the impact of a prop. They are also usually more mobile. Ball playing and more importantly decision making is also key certainly the latter which tends to be the difference between a prop and a middle along with a minimum of 60 mins consistently week in week out. Beyond 2025 I hope that Rodwell takes the 13 shirt as I think that is his best position, but for that to happen we would need to recruit props/middles in the next off season.

[quote="Trojan Horse":20rw5qrd]I thought Doro was poor. He ran hard but made zero post contact metres and got folded in the tackle. He won’t be SL ready for a couple years but I don’t rate him despite the media hype. Surprisingly, there was a forward who played us a few times for different teams out on loan. Had a good pair of hands too. Think it was Sammy Kibula.[/quote:20rw5qrd] I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.

Spot on with Mago, that was an oversight. Might be wrong but don’t think Walters lined up at prop (he was open about not wanting to do that like he did at Leeds). All good points, but why couldn’t Uele or Atoni be middles, apart from the fact they rarely stand at first receiver?

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":15ak6ae6]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:15ak6ae6] He’s woeful! Big body and capable of some eye catching plays but lazy and heart the size of a pea, his lack of athleticism particularly his movement laterally makes him very easy to read in attack and a massive target in defence. He was the big lad that dominated games in the Academy because he was physically superior but once he stepped up he looked totally lost and anonymous.

"[quote="Vastman":b6f561mg]Oh do give it a rest for once. You know exactly what I meant so stop the agent provocateur stuff, I wouldn’t mind if you were any good at it. He comes as back up FACT and he will have to accept that to start with FACT. If he goes onto prove himself worthy and becomes first choice that’s fantastic, I’d love that. What he can’t do is swagger in and think he’s number one based on past achievements and then sulk when he isn’t first on the list. You earn your change or are you claiming otherwise?"[/quote:b6f561mg] Well that didn't take long. True colours always shine through i guess. But I think you'll find it isn't a fact its your opinion about something that hasn't even happened. I didn't actually think my reply was that controversial. I'd be interested to know how I can comment without getting a s response apart from just agreeing with you. Which in this case, I don't unfortunately

Rodwell being a 13 is not a given for me. He's fitter and more mobile than a normal prop but I can't say I've seen him do a lot of ball handling. Atoni does more than him. But as a powerful runner and big defensive backrower he's great. Just depends what kind of 13 you want.

[quote="PopTart":2pjg5aj7]Rodwell being a 13 is not a given for me. He's fitter and more mobile than a normal prop but I can't say I've seen him do a lot of ball handling. Atoni does more than him. But as a powerful runner and big defensive backrower he's great. Just depends what kind of 13 you want.[/quote:2pjg5aj7] There are very few ball playing 13s these days. I’m of the opinion you need 3 creative outlets on the field, 6, 7 and 1 or 13. If you go with 4 it reduces their time with the ball and effectiveness as they start to get in each others way. Origin 3 this year Queensland tried it throwing Pongia on without removing another creative player and they fell apart. Rodwell can tip on the ball and do big minutes with the ability to post a high tackle count and continue to be effective.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":17nef1lg]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:17nef1lg] He did pretty decent against trinity in championship but as you say he just can’t seem to crack it at the top level. Think he’s at Batley now.

[quote="Droopy":3f42q9aa][youtube][/youtube]My point exactly, other than McMeeken, our other starting props are either unproven at SL or have a point to prove. It does worry me. I was disappointed when Bowden signed elsewhere because whilst he isn’t a world beater, he is robust and experienced enough to be a key part of the team. You then look at if one of our first 4 props is injured who steps up? Bain and Vangana are both inexperienced and probably a little lightweight. Storton, probably would be my preference to step up but isn’t a natural prop. So I go back to my previous post, even though it wouldn’t be a exciting or inspiring signing, a experienced and robust SL prop is needed in my opinion.[/quote:3f42q9aa] Although I sort of agree, in hindsight another year from Bowden would have sorted us out but we don't know how his body was fairing even at Champ level let alone SL. but it looks like we enquiring after another body, after we asked Wigan about Makin. I'd say a few of our Props have a point to prove in SL, especially the young Aussies coming up for the first time, but I'm certainly not worried that they're going to let us down in any way. I haven't since we played Wigan in that friendly last year. Yeah, I know when it was and what it was, but all our guys handled themselves superbly against Wigan and showed they could go toe to toe against a champion SL team, and that was when most of them had just fallen off a plane. Since then their confidence levels have improved, they've got used to playing in England, as a team and have developed a good bond. I don't worry about McMeeken, Atoni, Uele or Rodwell. Atoni last half of 2023 was decent, once BIg Dave arrived to give the pack some go-forward and he seemed to feed off him and build confidence from there. Both Uele and Rodwell bossed the Championship so much that the step-up doesn't worry me at all. Both are complete professionals and Rodwell already came to us as a player ready to play at a higher level IMO. I also wouldn't put Bain and Vagana in the same bracket personally, Vagana has a higher ceiling IMO. I certainly wouldn't describe him as a little lightweight. He's already a huge guy for his age, with huge legs, 6ft4/5 and he has the frame to really add some size and muscle to it. Bain's smaller, weighs just 95kgs and is definitely more of a back row/13 than a prop, he's a similar size to Cozza and his frame wouldn't lend itself to piling on size, especially at 24 IMO. I know the coaches are looking at Vagana being a wide-running destructive back rower which I can understand, he's already caused issues out wide and another off-season under him it will potentially make him that much more dangerous. Saying that over the next year or 2 he could easily add 10kg and turn into a beast down the middle, whether that be prop or 13. Stourton could play prop at a push but we'd have to have an injury crisis, just as we would if Cozza played there or Bain. Storton's one of our best back rowers and along with Seth, Pitts, Griffin, that's where they should mostly stay. There's also Cam Scott who's a good back-rower, but it looks like we're fancying him at this season and tbf he looked the part on boxing g day.

Atoni's best game in 2023 in my opinion was against Warrington when he played 13. However, we used him as an extra prop rather than what you'd call a traditional loose forward. Powell often went with 3 props when he was at Cas, and this is where I think we'd need an extra one if we needed 3 on the bench as well.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":7yu4w9u6]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:7yu4w9u6] Kibula had a spell at Fev on loan towards the backend and was pretty woeful, missing tackles and making little impact. He's huge but seems to fancy himself as a ball-playing forward, he's the type who clubs will always take a chance on because of his size but he's not one to have too much faith in.

Bain has departed the club. Firstly I hope all is well with him and his family and it is just a decision he has made that he wants to go home. From a squad perspective this is exciting as it opens up another overseas quota spot and an opportunity to add further quality. I was surprised we retained Bain, personally didn’t see much in him other than a Championships standard player so I think it’s a good move as long as we can replace him and use his quota spot well.

Yes I agree I wish him well but his spot is valuable

[quote="jonh":2omgoh68]There are very few ball playing 13s these days. I’m of the opinion you need 3 creative outlets on the field, 6, 7 and 1 or 13. If you go with 4 it reduces their time with the ball and effectiveness as they start to get in each others way. Origin 3 this year Queensland tried it throwing Pongia on without removing another creative player and they fell apart. Rodwell can tip on the ball and do big minutes with the ability to post a high tackle count and continue to be effective.[/quote:2omgoh68] Bit of a difference between Origin 3 and the rugby we will be playing. Does any body know if Sky are showing the Australian rugby league or are we just getting the second rate stuff in England

[quote="alegend":2kajelgq]Bit of a difference between Origin 3 and the rugby we will be playing. Does any body know if Sky are showing the Australian rugby league or are we just getting the second rate stuff in England[/quote:2kajelgq] Correct but if the best players in the world cannot accommodate and make 4 ball players work on the field at the same time what hope do we have of making a success of it.

[quote="alegend":3peiw90c]Bit of a difference between Origin 3 and the rugby we will be playing. Does any body know if Sky are showing the Australian rugby league or are we just getting the second rate stuff in England[/quote:3peiw90c] Don't go down the trawling for bites route. You are better than that. If you want NRL you need the Watch NRL app/Fox League app All games on there. About £120 a year

[quote="PopTart":38m27a94]Don't go down the trawling for bites route. You are better than that. If you want NRL you need the Watch NRL app/Fox League app All games on there. About £120 a year[/quote:38m27a94] Told every body my powder is dry till next season .Just put down what I think ..,and to find out if it is on Sky By the way if you get a dodgy stick .You can watch any Sport that is on live ,in fact any thing for a bit more than you can watch Fox League for .Would never get one ,but know plenty who have Think the only time I watch sport live is when I watch Wakefield just have not got the time .Over 70 and a mind that is good think my self very lucky

Harvey Makin, Nene Macdonald and Watkins to Trin

God usually has decent info on who we’re signing etc. Be interesting to see what he thinks.

[quote="asmadasa":msaji56r]Harvey Makin, Nene Macdonald and Watkins to Trin[/quote:msaji56r] Would be happy with all three of them. Not refuting it, but have you seen it any more concrete than fan socials?

[quote="Pat Bateman":3ec924gj]God usually has decent info on who we’re signing etc. Be interesting to see what he thinks.[/quote:3ec924gj] Well, he would though wouldn't he?? Oh, you mean the [i:3ec924gj]forum[/i:3ec924gj] one......

[quote="Butcher":pj30silh]Would be happy with all three of them. Not refuting it, but have you seen it any more concrete than fan socials?[/quote:pj30silh] No it’s a hope only…