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| I blame franchising. I am sure hand on heart we all really know there are only 3/4 teams with a chance of winning anything, the rest of the clubs are just going through the motions to make up the numbers it what has basically become a meaningless competition.
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| Quote ="jack in the box"I blame franchising. I am sure hand on heart we all really know there are only 3/4 teams with a chance of winning anything, the rest of the clubs are just going through the motions to make up the numbers it what has basically become a meaningless competition.'"
I think a few more are capable of a cup final, or a play-off run, including us - if we have some luck with injuries etc... - but yes, you're right and particularly so for clubs who are out of the top 8 running.
I used to enjoy games where you knew lower sides would throw everything at better sides because their place depended on it - it added to the unpredictable nature of the sport - which seems to be missing from the game.
RL is a tribal game - put a tribe under threat of extinction and they will fight to the death. Tell them it doesn't matter and they can come back and try again next year and it becomes a pantomime.
P&R is a must!
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| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"People short of money at a guess.'"
May as well have ended the thread there!
P&R as an excuse? Why have Wakefield's attendances gone up since P&R was scrapped, even in the last seasons under the old regime?
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| Huddersfield are an oddity and probably not a reasonable barometer - regardless of Uncle Ken's millions, the people of that borough just don't seem to be inspired by the Giants; I'm not sure how the football team fares, but could it just be that they're primarily a footy town?
I don't agree that P&R is to blame - it's probably got more to do with the financial climate and the tightening of belts that has happened as a result; people will prioritise needs over wants in times of financial difficulty and for most sane people, weekly RL matches fall into the latter category.
Like every other industry, RL needs to develop strategies to ride out the crisis and individual clubs should be doing everything in their power to maximise other revenue streams to compensate for the loss of gates.
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| Quote ="TRB"I think a few more are capable of a cup final, or a play-off run, including us - if we have some luck with injuries etc... - but yes, you're right and particularly so for clubs who are out of the top 8 running.
I used to enjoy games where you knew lower sides would throw everything at better sides because their place depended on it - it added to the unpredictable nature of the sport - which seems to be missing from the game.
RL is a tribal game - put a tribe under threat of extinction and they will fight to the death. Tell them it doesn't matter and they can come back and try again next year and it becomes a pantomime.
P&R is a must!'"
I quite like this idea of a two-tier professional league, with promotion between the two. My problem with 2006 wasn't that we'd be relegated, but that we'd never be allowed back up. A season in a lower division would be quite exciting if filled with teams like Cas, Fev, Batley, Halifax, Leigh, and if there was a prize at stake each time.
Pre-franchise, there were even fewer teams with a chance of winning. What about all the years when the question in February was "who's going to win the Grand Final, Bulls or Saints?" It is a lot tighter between the top clubs now, and any one of 8 clubs has a real shot of getting to Old Trafford (I include Hull and Bradford in that). I know we wouldn't have got there last year, but in reality we were the ninth best club, not the eighth, in terms of what was done on the pitch.
The problem with the ideal two-tier set-up is giving the lower division enough TV money to make it fully professional.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"I quite like this idea of a two-tier professional league, with promotion between the two. My problem with 2006 wasn't that we'd be relegated, but that we'd never be allowed back up. A season in a lower division would be quite exciting if filled with teams like Cas, Fev, Batley, Halifax, Leigh, and if there was a prize at stake each time.
Pre-franchise, there were even fewer teams with a chance of winning. What about all the years when the question in February was "who's going to win the Grand Final, Bulls or Saints?" It is a lot tighter between the top clubs now, and any one of 8 clubs has a real shot of getting to Old Trafford (I include Hull and Bradford in that). I know we wouldn't have got there last year, but in reality we were the ninth best club, not the eighth, in terms of what was done on the pitch.
The problem with the ideal two-tier set-up is giving the lower division enough TV money to make it fully professional.'"
Spot on - I've said for a while that the weakness of SL, and the reasoning for Licences, is the lack of depth in the lower leagues. If you could have 10 teams who all tick the box - reasonably - for SL, then you can have a free-exchange of P&R. If SL went to 10 clubs, with 3 of them qualifying for the expanded WCC, then that would eliminate 4 clubs. Their money, split between 10 clubs, would go a long way to keeping them competitive, and allow them to continue to develop young talent. Not saying it is THE answer, but it's an idea.
The crux is that clubs dropping in there would have the chance to get back out.
Having said all that, on what criteria are we working - because as much as we keep working towards a new stadium, both us and Cas have still to dig a foundation, London don't have a home and Odsal is crumbling!
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| Quote ="TRB"Odsal is crumbling!'"
But crumbling in a rather iconic fashion.
You could quite reasonably base it on historical success.
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| Bring back relegation and promotion I say. But have the championship season finish a month or so before super league this shall give the chance for the promoted club recruiting new players !
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| The promoted club will recruit all the players let go by the demoted club and become next season's whipping boys. Rinse and repeat each year.
The sport of RL, like it or not, is not sufficiently well resourced to support either a two tier SL, or a return to P&R.
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| Quote ="bren2k"The promoted club will recruit all the players let go by the demoted club and become next season's whipping boys. Rinse and repeat each year.
The sport of RL, like it or not, is not sufficiently well resourced to support either a two tier SL, or a return to P&R.'"
I suppose there is an argument that the new club would be a proper whipping boy, because all of the nine teams above it will be very good. But if you accept the current top nine clubs will keep the squad they have, surely there is a very good team to be had from the best of the bottom 5?
I don't the solution really, but pricing has to be the real problem. You only have to go into a town centre to see how people are not spending money, and so how can RL clubs believe that they can impose 5% and 10% increases on gate prices year on year without suffering? It's so easy to put a quid on here and there, but it accumulates over time. What was it in 2007? Around £17? Six years later, the walk-up price is £22. That's around 30%. Wages have got nowhere near that.
We are insulated maybe because of season ticket deals, and the advance tickets are being marketed well, but it has to be a factor for other clubs, and certainly for away fans
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| Quote ="bazzo44"another poor crowd, 4751 at cas, just over 5000 at hudds, and less than 4000 at salford for a derby game, whats going on with the game'"
In Cas' case winning about 10 games in the last 50 might have something to do with it.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"I suppose there is an argument that the new club would be a proper whipping boy, because all of the nine teams above it will be very good. But if you accept the current top nine clubs will keep the squad they have, surely there is a very good team to be had from the best of the bottom 5?
I don't the solution really, but pricing has to be the real problem. You only have to go into a town centre to see how people are not spending money, and so how can RL clubs believe that they can impose 5% and 10% increases on gate prices year on year without suffering? It's so easy to put a quid on here and there, but it accumulates over time. What was it in 2007? Around £17? Six years later, the walk-up price is £22. That's around 30%. Wages have got nowhere near that.
We are insulated maybe because of season ticket deals, and the advance tickets are being marketed well, but it has to be a factor for other clubs, and certainly for away fans'"
I can't argue with the financial realities of modern life - for many people, weekly SL games are an expensive luxury that they can choose to do without.
Personally, I'd advocate a much more solid membership offer - the club needs to really sweat its corporate contacts and sponsors for decent membership benefits to achieve that; then whack out an early indication that a ST will cost x for the year (say £250) and it can be paid for monthly over 6 months; attract the early cash that seems to be required to get us through the off-season by offering a 20% discount for people who buy early and in one go.
I'd certainly get shot of all the complicated, time-sensitive pricing schemes that seem to cause more confusion than the benefits they offer, and just make the whole package more attractive; I'd also consider a loyalty card type scheme - earn Wildcats Wonga with every penny you spend at the club, the ground, the shop, its sponsors and potentially, any other Wakefield business who opts into the scheme - fantastic for gathering marketing data as well as building a sense of a civic pride around the club and other businesses operating in the city.
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| In all fairness to Cas they would never be expected to draw a massive crowd against London just as we wont.
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| Quote ="les-goose"In all fairness to Cas they would never be expected to draw a massive crowd against London just as we wont.'"
Just as any team wouldn't against London.
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| Quote ="bren2k"The promoted club will recruit all the players let go by the demoted club and become next season's whipping boys. Rinse and repeat each year.
The sport of RL, like it or not, is not sufficiently well resourced to support either a two tier SL, or a return to P&R.'"
If that is truly the case Bren, the governing body should grow a large pair and move to a full franchising system.
They could always have the threat of an axe falling on any club that fails (enters admin etc) and equally offer the carrot of promotion (inclusion) for any club that can prove its value to the top flight.
The worry for ourselves is that they could make a chang but, they may also reduce numbers, which could leave us dangling.
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| I'm not sure where this reduction in the number of teams in SL has come from, but it's in danger of becoming received wisdom; as far as I can recall, Jamie Peacock banged on about it towards the back end of last season when his knees started hurting again and since then, a few of the wealthier club owners have backed it up - without question, their support for this ill considered idea is born out of self-interest and nothing more. They assume that Sky will pay the same for a smaller competition and that as a result, their own clubs will receive a greater share of the Sky money.
In reality, it would be a step backwards for RL and would give Sky an easy way to reduce the funding it currently provides for a 14 team SL; fewer games, smaller coverage = less sponsorship.
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| Quote ="bren2k"I'm not sure where this reduction in the number of teams in SL has come from, but it's in danger of becoming received wisdom; as far as I can recall, Jamie Peacock banged on about it towards the back end of last season when his knees started hurting again and since then, a few of the wealthier club owners have backed it up - without question, their support for this ill considered idea is born out of self-interest and nothing more. They assume that Sky will pay the same for a smaller competition and that as a result, their own clubs will receive a greater share of the Sky money.
In reality, it would be a step backwards for RL and would give Sky an easy way to reduce the funding it currently provides for a 14 team SL; fewer games, smaller coverage = less sponsorship.'"
The reduction in numbers seems to get a mention every time one tunes in to either the radio or TV.
however, fewer teams may not = less sponsorship.
If a "more competetive league" creates more intense matches with smaller winning margins, then even Mr Wood should be able to conjure up a decent deal with Sky.
There desperately needs to be some improvement with London, whose crowds are an embarrassment to the sport (closely followed by Salford - although you would expect them to improve in the medium term) and should London drop down a division, who knows what happens to the sponsorship deal, I guess we would find out then, just how much Sky want a London based team in the tiop flight.
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| Quote ="les-goose"In all fairness to Cas they would never be expected to draw a massive crowd against London just as we wont.'"
Wakefield
24 - 6
London Broncos
Stobart Super League 3rd Jun 2012 KO 15:30 Ground: Belle Vue Att: 5,876
Below average but more than Cas got...
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"The reduction in numbers seems to get a mention every time one tunes in to either the radio or TV.
however, fewer teams may not = less sponsorship.'"
That's because most modern journalists get their half-baked stories by reading Twitter and internet forums; as I said - a thread that gets a lot of hits becomes the basis for a story and before you know where you are, it's received wisdom.
Personally, I don't think Sky give two hoots about competitiveness and intensity; they give several hoots about viewing figures and subscriptions though, and I fail to see how a reduced SL could be sold to them as anything other than less than what they currently pay for. Anyone who thinks they'll pay more to enable a two tier league to operate on a FT basis is deluding themselves - it won't happen.
Far too much oxygen is given to these stupid ideas in my opinion, mostly in the pursuit of self-interest.
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| Quote ="bren2k"That's because most modern journalists get their half-baked stories by reading Twitter and internet forums; as I said - a thread that gets a lot of hits becomes the basis for a story and before you know where you are, it's received wisdom.
Personally, I don't think Sky give two hoots about competitiveness and intensity; they give several hoots about viewing figures and subscriptions though, and I fail to see how a reduced SL could be sold to them as anything other than less than what they currently pay for. Anyone who thinks they'll pay more to enable a two tier league to operate on a FT basis is deluding themselves - it won't happen.
Far too much oxygen is given to these stupid ideas in my opinion, mostly in the pursuit of self-interest.'"
FWIW I totally agree with you but, I really wouldnt be surprised at anything that comes out of the current "review".
Of course Sky are only bothered about Sky and if they couldn't sell advertising for the 2 or 3 minutes before the games and at half time etc, they wouldnt sponsor the game at all.
They have to decide how bothered we are about competing with the Aussies (bearing in mind their $billion deal) and about expansion of the game and i'm not sure that there is a plan for either of these issues.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"FWIW I totally agree with you but, I really wouldnt be surprised at anything that comes out of the current "review".
Of course Sky are only bothered about Sky and if they couldn't sell advertising for the 2 or 3 minutes before the games and at half time etc, they wouldnt sponsor the game at all.
They have to decide how bothered we are about competing with the Aussies (bearing in mind their $billion deal) and about expansion of the game and i'm not sure that there is a plan for either of these issues.'"
=#FF0080PM's need reading wrencat
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| Quote ="El Rey"=#FF0080PM's need reading wrencat
'"
Cheers
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Cheers'"
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"The reduction in numbers seems to get a mention every time one tunes in to either the radio or TV.
however, fewer teams may not = less sponsorship.
If a "more competetive league" creates more intense matches with smaller winning margins, then even Mr Wood should be able to conjure up a decent deal with Sky.
There desperately needs to be some improvement with London, whose crowds are an embarrassment to the sport (closely followed by Salford - although you would expect them to improve in the medium term) and should London drop down a division, who knows what happens to the sponsorship deal, I guess we would find out then, just how much Sky want a London based team in the tiop flight.'"
Let's look at the evidence to support that
2012 - SL sponsorship "sold" to Stobarts for nothing
2013 - Does the league have any sponsorship yet this season?
IMO Mr Wood spends too much time consulting with Peter's Pies and not enough time talking to other potential sponsors.
If you truly believe Nigel Wood could get a better deal form SKY for a reduced competition (even if it was more competitive) you are
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| To be fair to Wood, he's managed to worm his way out of the issue that SL has no title sponsor. That's quite a talent.
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