I think Grime could be categorised as a 'scene' - such that it started underground, spread by word of mouth, produced some genuine superstars, influenced popular culture in allsorts of ways, caused a bit of moral panic, and has now gone mainstream, as such movements always do; my son, on seeing Stormzy duet with Ed Sheeran at the Brits, text me to say, "The day that Grime died..."

I wonder if as you get older, this stuff happens off your radar, and matters much less, so it passes you by; whereas whatever 'scene' happened when you were in your salad days, always feels more real and meaningful and important?

Youth scenes will always occur but each will be ever less relevant or important.

Two reasons imho.

One, today's modern corporations don't fight they embrace. They have brilliantly learned to take any youth culture and refine and repackage it at an astonishing rate. Very few youth movemts are genuine for long but now you have to wonder with some whether they were ever genuine at all!

Secondly rebellion or lack of. Who exactly are most kids rebelling against. When most parents want to be your mate and teachers seem younger than their pupils where is the conflict that creates great music. When many kids are sexually wise and active at 14 where is the teenage angst. Then there is booze, drugs and porn - hard to be idealistic against that backdrop.

My parents differed hugely from me they were almost Victorian and mine were far from the worst. My dad in particular had no u derstanding of the modern world, he was a cap doffer bless him because he was born in 1932.

I try to put up boundaries with my kids and set some kind of example which is better than nowt imho. However the differences in attitude and beliefs between me and my kids is small mainly bits of detail.

Asically my generation could shock my parents, my kids couldn't shock me without betraying there own beliefs.
Thus all you get is very niche and short lived youth movements.

It up to you if you think that's good or bad.

Missing the match this weekend - off to London to see Jim Bob from Carter USM do a solo show at Shepherds Bush empire. Usually a storming live show even if he is on his acoustic guitar these days rather than the full electric show of old.

I wouldn't disagree with most of that - but I guess the relevance and importance bit is based more on distance and perspective; if you're a kid, and you're right in the thick of a 'movement' as an active participant - and it affects and moves you directly - then it is entirely relevant and important. If you're an old fart who's had his or her day, and you're only awareness of a youth movement is watching it from a distance and not really being bothered either way - because you have a sore back and a mortgage to worry about - then it looks irrelevant and trivial. Couple that with the constant cycle of believing that music was better in your day, and it's easy to convince yourself that everything that happens after that, is a pale imitation.

I do fully agree with you though on the way that these things are quickly seized on by modern corporates and monetised; and social media means that something 'underground' can be mainstream in a matter of days if it goes viral; so that phenomenon that we enjoyed, of feeling like you were in on something secret and new, is perhaps not the same for todays kids - no need for bootlegs and white labels any more, when you can just grab everything for free from out of the air at the same time that everyone else does. Doesn't feel quite so special to me - but maybe the cliquey feeling that we liked, has been replaced by being part of something that people all over the world are also liking at the same time?

All that said, there is some phenomenal new music around, and I still enjoy finding stuff based on recommends, word of mouth or (and I never thought I'd say this) streaming services recommending something based on what I'm listening to; I gave in and started using Spotify a year or so ago, and it's pointed me towards some great bands that I've subsequently bought, seen live etc etc.

Great thread this.
I'm just trying to think of the list of live acts I've seen. ...very different to most on here.

You could also add to your list is the big drop off of football violence that was because at the time, all the firms would end up at the same parties loved up on E and putting past grievances behind them.

In answer to your question, I think the world due to technology and how people communicate with each other, via facebook, ter, Instagram etc has changed the world forever,imo people have just changed for me at that age. Let's face it there wasn't that much different as far as how we lived in the world between the first summer of love and the second. Alright, computers started to pop up and games machines but that was about it imo

It would be hard to imagine in today's culture of instant information, 100 albums in your car, download an album at a press of a button, something similar could happen, but hey what do I know. I mean just thinking back to how it all gradually came about was sort of lucky. It took the likes of Detroit & Chicago DJ's kicking it all off over there, albeit not anything like as popular as it would eventually become in Britain. Before the likes of Danny Rampling, Paul Oakenfold Nicky Holloway and Johnny Walker went on holiday to Ibiza and experienced Amnesia House for the first time, Where DJ Alfredo was playing this mix of US Hard house and Italian dance tunes. They came back home and then wanted to recreate what they experienced on holiday, which they did n about 88 at the now-famous Club called Shoom and that could be said to be the start.I know Hacienda gradually caught on but before that tey were playing bands on Factory Records every night until he really turned in a proper Dance Club After Shoom though, it all went a bit sideways with illegal raves because no Club would put them on under pressure from Councils et. So that's where the scene ended up going for the next year or so, underground. I know Hacienda gradually caught on, but before that, they were playing bands on Factory Records every night and running the Club on New Orders profits. Until Wilson really turned it in a proper Dance Club and when all the gangs and scumbags weren't there it was excellent place tbh but you had to go on a Saturdays because all gangs used to be in on Fridays, which I found out to my mistake, talk about bad buzz.

Then the excitement of going to an illegal rave was unreal at the time especially as a 15/16-year-old, who told his mum and dad he was stopping at his mates for the night, not meeting up at random service stations down the M62 in a Transit Van on a Saturday night because a mate had heard that's where everyone was to meet and then someone would have to ring a phone number that would tell them where it was all going down and then the Convoy would star. Through all these little quaint villages in the middle of nowhere then all of a sudden you'd see the lights because someone had got access to a barn or an old plane hanger.

Then the total overreaction and demonising by the government about it all at the time was surreal, probably like how the hippies in the 60's felt, bringing in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

Also, say what you want but I remember Westgate around that time plus before and a few years after but between about 91-94 there were hardly any fights when Rooftops and Casanova's had cottoned on to the scene in about 91.

John Bramwell, tonight, Brudenell club, Leeds! Still tickets if anyone is a fan of his or I Am Kloot.

I am Kloot are my favourite sun lounger band.

The Brudenell is a great venue - it's a social enterprise I believe, and overcame the usual noise complaints that live venues experience these days, to become a really important part of the live scene in Leeds.

If the girls with the pizza van are outside afterwards, I can recommend the chorizo - it's delicious!

Your mention of the demonisation by the government reminds me of The Sex pistols and "God save the queen", the powers that be changed the rules at the time to avoid the Pistols getting to number one in the charts. Here's a quote from the Independent

Not only did the public have difficulty hearing the single, they also had trouble buying it. WH Smith, Woolworths and Boots refused to stock it. Many people bought it in Virgin's own stores. It came into the chart at No 10 and looked as though it would be at the top during jubilee week itself.


Anxious to avoid that, the authorities came to an instant decision: shops which sold their own records could not be included in the chart. Hence, Virgin's sales for the crucial week were ignored for the purposes of compiling the chart, and Rod Stewart stayed at No 1 with "I Don't Want To Talk About It".

One of my favourite venues, regularly travel down for gigs there. Yes the pizzas are good, so is the beer!

I vaguely remember all that carry on, being a lot younger of course



Think it just made most of us more determined to get hold of the record.

One of my favourite venues, reasonable prices, it's like watching a band in your local working mans club.

Quote ="NEwildcat"I vaguely remember all that carry on, being a lot younger of course Think it just made most of us more determined to get hold of the record.'" Well in this instance I'm happy to be that bit older. I've tried googling it but I can remember looking at a photo taken at W * Sm*ths window at the charts that week and there was a top 20 board but there were only nineteen places shown, the number two was left blank, they were that pathetic that they didn't even show the Pistols in the charts at all! If I can possibly find a photo I'll post it. PS. Found it. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=God+s ... jrA1OKf5YM:

Quote ="NEwildcat"I vaguely remember all that carry on, being a lot younger of course Think it just made most of us more determined to get hold of the record.'" Well in this instance I'm happy to be that bit older. I've tried googling it but I can remember looking at a photo taken at W * Sm*ths window at the charts that week and there was a top 20 board but there were only nineteen places shown, the number two was left blank, they were that pathetic that they didn't even show the Pistols in the charts at all! If I can possibly find a photo I'll post it. PS. Found it. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=God+s ... jrA1OKf5YM:

Governments manipulating outcomes

never. Regarding the Sex Pistols, I remember me and our kid with britches with the trouser legs fastened with cord and safety pins with the Album Never Mind The B#@%*#ks blaring out

...oh to be young again

Yeah, there were a few tracks that they tried to ban on the radio etc. in the late 80's/90's.

There was one that someone made using the famous line from blockbusters, basically a dance track then some random bloke would say, 'can I have an E please Bob' which was basically the verse for the track



The biggest att, which they went after the hardest, which in turn made it an even bigger seller was D-Mob – ‘We Call It Acieeed’. It was 1988 and the government were shatting themselves for some reason



The best one and was from the last 90's that many must have seen & was probably worth a bit of the 'only watch after 9pm' was The Prodigy – ‘Smack My Bitch Up’ from 1997. Crazy video but yet very clever imo

I was a punk in my youth and loved every second of it, at the time it felt so rebellious, when you look back it was just a youth movement really.
I was too old when the rave scene came around but as a youth I'd have loved that. I worked with a guy and his son got arrested for organising a rave, it was under the M62 near Horbury bridge I think. His dad was playing merry hell at work and I was like "gooood lad".

I was never rebellious enough for some of the music you guys are talking about. I love the music looking back. I never got punk (and I was too young really anyway) but equally some punk bands seem quite tame when you look back. When the Clash were at the height of their powers they were a rebelious and new punk band but you hear them on Radio 2 now.

Saying that, The Clash for me stays around because of the quality of the music and lyrics. It's not just old guys wanting to relive their rebellious teens, songs like London Calling and Rock The Casbah could easily be covered by the Script or the Killers now and go straight to the top. Covering or re-issuing the Sex Pistols wouldn't get a play anywhere in my opinion. They were of their time and that time has gone.

One of the best examples of how I liked music when I was younger is the Jam. I think I mentioned them earlier.
When you look at the early performances of the Jam, they are full of angry young man angst, and it kind of put me off them, but they changed slightly as I went through my teens and Jam/Style Council/Weller jumped to one of my favourite band/solos. Funny how the image can change your perception of the music.

I've never been frightened to go see whatever it is I want to see though, whether popular with my friends or not. I have tickets to see both Kylie and Shania Twain now.

Out of interest why did the "angry young man angst" put you off the Jam?

I just wrote a really long reply and then clicked on a pop up which lost my page. It was a masterpiece of writing that will be lost forever.

I can sum it up though by saying I was just not that kid. I was born in 68 so quite young as they built their rep through the 70s. I wanted to be John Travolta then rather the angry young man (the irony being that JT was an angry young man in his own right in SNF). I was the 'nice' kid not the rebellious kid.
In the 80s the revolution for me was all about the Miners Strike and Mandela and Live Aid. The music of change was much more mainstream in that time and although I was very engaged, I wasn't suffering from any of the issues at that time. I come from a mining background but my parents weren't in that industry at all, so I felt strongly about it but I wasn't affected by it.
I think music at that time was my escape rather than my voice of rebellion and the angry young man.

Looking back now, I can judge the music on it's merits so music I might have missed first time round like the Clash are at the top of my list now.

I have to say a good friend of mine who sadly passed away before his time used to do an excellent Weller on stage. He was the most unlikely guy to even sing along in a crowd but when pushed up front in the rugby club with his guitar to some strange maybe even patronising looks, he did 'Down At the Tube station' as well as I have ever heard it with all the relative passion and skill of Weller. People never looked at him the same. It's a great memory, so the Jam have a special place for me, even though I wasn't there at the beginning.

99 red balloons was a No1 during the strike

just a bit of useless information

That's tickets sorted for Killing Joke!

UK Subs tonight! I know there's a game on but was pre-booked, thought it was all going great when the game was on Sunday as I'm in Leeds on the night for Gomez, hotel booked!

Please don't be messaging the score, will watch as soon as I get home.

Similar with me, booked tickets for the Angelic upstarts ages since, they then changed the day, Upstarts instead of Trin. Cel a vie.

Looking forward to Charlie and the boys covering some ABBA to celebrate them reforming