If you read the thread properly the context of my comments and the responses to my comments were based around migration and immigration. No one was suggesting that the whole in/out EU topic was solely about immigration.

That's the problem with the 'in' campaigners, they want to paint those seeking to leave as simple minded and somehow ignorant of the wider issues. As I said at the end of my first post, because I dared to mention immigration you can conveniently dismiss me as a racist Farage following idiot. If it helps you win you're argument then carry on but more fool you!

The ' in' voters seem to think they have the mortgage on intelligence and freedom of thought while those wanting out are being brainwashed by Boris Johnson.

We all have a view and it's as valid and informed as anyone else's despite the condescending attempts to belittle anyone who wants out.

To be clear - I wasn't labelling people who support Brexit as idiots; I was referring specifically to Farage and his ilk, who have deliberately made the debate about migration, when they know it's about much more than that.

My issue is with the whole process - I think both campaigns have been run in a very negative way, based on fear of what might happen, rather than facts about what will; it muddies the whole thing in my view.

Avenger - I come in peace but both sides are guilty.

"That's the problem with the 'in' campaigners, they want to paint those seeking to leave as simple minded and somehow ignorant of the wider issues."

This just isn't true any more than the assertion that all "Leavers" are racists. My gripe isn't with ordinary folk whose views differ to mine but with the politicians who, quite simply, lie. Both camps lie about the impact on the economy, on jobs, on the cost of living, house prices etc. But what infuriates and saddens me about the Brexit politicians is that they lie about immigration and in doing so they make intolerance and xenophobia acceptable. An example today. The net migration figure has gone up. Farage and company claim this is further evidence that we've lost control of our borders and should vote to leave. What they don't say is that immigration has actually gone down and the net figure is up because emigration has also gone down but by a bit more. They also don't mention that the two biggest contributors to inwards migration are India and China - nothing to do with EU. It's this kind of lying / economy with the truth that Dismays and worries me. It is creating an intolerant, fearful, suspicious country where morons from the EDL, Britain First, BNP etc feel free to spout their hate filled bile. I don't think the EU is perfect - far from it. But I do think that, by being in it, we can help to change it to make it a better place for all its citizens. Leave and we're at the mercy of the people who want our country to be insular, inward looking and narrow minded.

Understood, but doesn't David Cameron saying that the UK leaving the EU could destabilise Europe and increase the risk of a 3rd World War bother you?

The reason both sides are using negative campaigning is that neither side really know what will happen. It's never been done before.
I'm sure a lot of intelligent people are forecasting what will happen, but the reason it is hard to decide which way to fall is that you really have to decide to believe someone rather than follow a fact, or a party policy.

I'm still not sure which way I'm going to vote.

I still can't make up my mind, it would be great if we could read/listen to information which doesn't have a personal agenda. I read an article and think, that's me sorted, then I read an article on the same subject and I get a completely opposite opinion.

Absolutely!!
A few months ago he said he was prepared to take the U.K. out of Europe if he didn't get the concessions he was negotiating (lol). So, either he was prepared to take us out and risk WW3 or he's lying now. Neither is a very good platform for a PM. The man's a total liar and will say whatever he thinks is appropriate at the time. But Osborne, Gove, Johnson, May, IDS, Farage are all exactly the same. The only politician to come out with anything like credit is Caroline Lucas (Another Europe is Possible). Like you, I will make up my own mind. I make no secret of it - I don't like the tone of the Brexit campaign and I fear for the country it will lead to if we leave the EU so I'll be voting IN.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread - the report they're using includes non-EU migration, which has continued to rise, despite the 'controls' that the Brexiters suggest is the answer to all our problems, already being in place.

And Avenger - I agree - that was a ridiculous thing to say; both sides of the argument are guilty of attention seeking soundbites.

Quote ="wtid71"Politics is mostly full of career politicians that have no idea what it's like in the real world and I agree this subject has brought out the worst in them on both sides. My biggest motivator in voting out is the legacy it will have on my childs future and I do think that the current EU free movement of people has created lower wages and higher house prices in the UK alongside helping corporate bosses and bankers get richer to boot. The Australian model of a points system would work well in the UK and bring in the skills needed whilst managing the numbers to help our buckling health and education services.'" This.... Tax evasion is also rife which is why car washes, nail bars etc have sprung up everywhere and employ immigrants cash in hand (£35 per week) and a mattress on a floor in an over crowded terrace somewhere....HMRC and other organisations aren't dealing with the escalating issue. 333,000 migrants per year (184,000 EU) coming to the UK to live is unsustainable on the welfare state and its probably a conservative estimate and is nearer to half a million..once the agreement with Turkey (and its 75 million) population is in place for EU tourist visa the situation will get even worse in the UK. As there will be extensive over stayers on tourist visas knowing the UK Immigration service is a shambles and is weak. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36382199 To have a concern about genuine poor immigration controls is not being narrowed minded the Govt are failing to meet their targets.....if it is then most developed countries outside of the EU such as USA, Canada and Australia are guilty of it. The need to control immigration is greater than a short term hit in confidence in the economy..the UK survived without the EU (or EEC as it was known) prior to 1973 for those that are old enough to remember so why can't it again? Leaving the EU in terms of immigration control is only part of the answer the Immigration Service needs an overhaul.

Quote ="wtid71"Politics is mostly full of career politicians that have no idea what it's like in the real world and I agree this subject has brought out the worst in them on both sides. My biggest motivator in voting out is the legacy it will have on my childs future and I do think that the current EU free movement of people has created lower wages and higher house prices in the UK alongside helping corporate bosses and bankers get richer to boot. The Australian model of a points system would work well in the UK and bring in the skills needed whilst managing the numbers to help our buckling health and education services.'" This.... Tax evasion is also rife which is why car washes, nail bars etc have sprung up everywhere and employ immigrants cash in hand (£35 per week) and a mattress on a floor in an over crowded terrace somewhere....HMRC and other organisations aren't dealing with the escalating issue. 333,000 migrants per year (184,000 EU) coming to the UK to live is unsustainable on the welfare state and its probably a conservative estimate and is nearer to half a million..once the agreement with Turkey (and its 75 million) population is in place for EU tourist visa the situation will get even worse in the UK. As there will be extensive over stayers on tourist visas knowing the UK Immigration service is a shambles and is weak. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36382199 To have a concern about genuine poor immigration controls is not being narrowed minded the Govt are failing to meet their targets.....if it is then most developed countries outside of the EU such as USA, Canada and Australia are guilty of it. The need to control immigration is greater than a short term hit in confidence in the economy..the UK survived without the EU (or EEC as it was known) prior to 1973 for those that are old enough to remember so why can't it again? Leaving the EU in terms of immigration control is only part of the answer the Immigration Service needs an overhaul.

Yes he is a liar, but haven't all PM's over a long period? Remember Tony Blairs WMD? A total lie to get us into the Yanks good books.

Indeed. You won't find me disagreeing with that. I think the quality of a lot of our political leaders is very poor. They don't do what's best for the country. They do what's best for their parties and their own careers and bank balances. The EU referendum has made me ever more aware that our politicians are actually pretty shallow, lacking in intellect and very unprincipled.

I'm voting to remain. I did politics at Alevel and for what I consider important the EU is beneficial. That isn't to say I don't have issues with it, shared sovereignty for example. But for me the positive out weight the negatives

The science of politics and what actually happens is completely different

I certainly agree djcool. However I am actively involved in politics at uni and I am also a registered member of a political party. This allows me to be involved with politics on a day to day basis and therefore allow me to formulate my opinion from experience

I have no idea what this is- but speaking policts I hope the trumpster is the US pres

Vote LEAVE or you will be waving goodbye to the NHS as we know it. in ongoing talks between the EU and USA on a Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership [T.T.I.P hundreds of leaked documents just released show talks between the EU and USA on a T.T.I.P will lead to the NHS being privatised or dismantled. one section of the documents make clear an agreement will seek an end to all State intervention and a review of all State owned enterprises or monopolies. the USA private medical firms will be rubbing their hands with glee if we vote to stay in the EU. VOTE LEAVE

Doesn't bother me, I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

Well done. I've got a BA (Hons) in Politics and anyone can form a considered opinion. IMHO we should leave the bureaucratic EU.

Many other EU countries are against TTIP. By being in the EU we have a better chance of facing it down. Alone we'd have to cosy up to the USA more and that would leave us more at the mercy of TTIP.

The Brexit side are 99% right wingers who loathe state involvement. Is the NHS safe under Johnson, Duncan Smith, Grayling and Gove etc? No chance.

If Trump get's in, you may be needing a tin hat and it will be worth dusting down your nuclear bunker.

Sorry but that is a load of rubbish! Do you really think whichever side wins this makes any difference to the NHS whatsover? They are all Tories and they all want to privatise it one way or another. In fact voting to leave will probably make the likelihood of it happen increase given the people involved in that campaign, for example a guy called Arron Banks, one of the major players of the vote leave campaign has gone on record whilst cosying up to the people in America and stated he thinks it should be privatised! As a stand alone country the Yanks will ride roughshod all over us over this, as has been said the EU are not happy with many parts of the TTIP deal and have much more of a sway in negotiations as a larger bloc. The article is below.

[urlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-eu-leave-campaign-chief-arron-banks-nhs-privatised-a7022306.html[/url

Some countries have problems, some do not, those problems are not ours.
I have family members with Asian descent and some with Jewish heritage, although lapsed.
Skin colour is not an issue with me.
We are wrecking our country with the influx of Islam and the intolerance it brings with many still with attitudes from the Middle Ages, also barbaric practices such as F.G.M. from Africa.
We do not need any more people from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Cameroon, Libya, Syria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc. WE ARE FULL.
Go to other places in Africa rather than tossing it off here and stretching all our services to breaking point. I have become intolerant as I have grown older from decisions by politicians such as Blair and Cameron who are a waste of space. My business thrives on trade with the EU but my private heart is firmly LEAVE.
We are simply destroying the fabric of our society.
I cannot expect everyone to agree. It's just my view.

And you are entitled to your view. But the last time i checked those countries you mentioned were not in Europe so is a bit of an irrelevance for this argument as they don't qualify for freedom of movement anyway. Nothing will change in that regard whatever the result.