sorry......cant agree.

dont some players and management look on here??

so if they are underperforming and playing as bad as mathers did on sunday, would it be more helpful to him to say "you did ok, never mind"....or would it be better to say "mathers , you played crap"

turning a blind eye to bad play doesnt help anyone.

blunt, honest opinion does, although it may sound harsh and brutal, it helps in the long run.

ignoring the fact that certain players play crap week in week out is the best way to get em to carry on playing crap, as it leads them to believe the performances they are putting in are acceptable......when in fact , they arnt acceptable.

What personal stuff are you referring to?

I assume you mean speculation about a players health problems or stuff like than and not comments about their ability?

Or are you suggesting criticism of certain players is over the top which is not the same thing?

Bandwagon's do tend to form against certain players and it was pretty evident to me at the game on Sunday Mathers mistakes were picked on more than other players by the crowd for example. I sometimes think people join these bandwagon's because their mates do whether they have seen the game or not!

However it works the other way as well. Lockers is a a golden boy in many peoples eyes and can do no wrong.

Dave

I think that there is a distinction to be made between people saying "Mathers played crap on Sunday" and people saying "Mathers is crap". The first expresses disappointment and demands improvement, while the second displays nothing constructive.
As for players believing that performances are acceptable when they are not, I don't buy it. They know when they've had bad games, regardless of whether or not anyone tells them.
Further, if criticism is made with the intent of informing management of our opinion, it should be contstructively and articulately made. Simply saying (for example) "Feka's a fat lump of sh*te" isn't going to persuade anyone and will more than likely be dismissed as evidence that the poster is drunk or has a personal vendetta against Feka. On the other hand, saying something like "Mathers' positional play in defence was acceptable, but was undone by his weak one on one tackling, which was ineffectual at worst and dangerous close to foul play at best. In attack he failed to support the ball carrier and was therefore nowhere to be found just when an extra man coming into the line was needed. " is much harder to dismiss. I still doubt that any coach is going to look to fans' opinion for guidance in analysing the performance of his players, but there we go.
In my opinion, if we wish to motivate players, telling them they are rubbish is not the way to go about it. Booing them off the pitch is the right of fans, but must be used sparingly, I believe. After the Hudds game last season, it was a much needed wake-up call. Do it every week and it becomes counter-productive. For better or worse, these are the players we have this season. They are not going anywhere anytime soon. We need to balance our support and our criticism to get the best out of them. Ultimately, we want the players who play poorly to feel sorry for letting us down, to think, "those guys supported me and I let them down, I've got to do better", rather than thinking "they all hate me anyway and I get paid either way, screw 'em". Get them to see that the reason we are angry is that we demand better and we expect better...and we just may get better. Let them think that we expect nothing from them anyway, and where does their motivation come from?
I should just say that I quoted wigan pie man to help me answer a couple of general points. I am in no way saying that he advocates constantly slating the players and fully understand that he is talking about criticising for constructive and honest reasons.

yeah...good theory...

...sounds like a feckin politician...


He earns more money than we will ever earn....If I think he's a knob-head, I'll tell him...and whats more...on that money...he should walk round the pitch at the end and take it.

Mathers does not look like he is willing to put his body on the line. Everyone see that and thats why people have called him a coward. Although i dont agree with getting on a players back during the game, like happened on Sunday. How is that going to help us!? Some of our supporters are embarassing when it comes to things like that.

I think the ironic cheers at the game for Richie Mathers did nothing to help his confidence and nothing to help the team. Some of the things put on here about Richie have been constructive whilst some of it has just been to bag him for the sake of it. Like others have said you will always (sadly) get your scapegoat and then you will always get players who can never do any wrong.

I don't like seeing fans getting on players backs at the ground but I have no problem with them calling players out on here as long as it is fair and not personal.

Thankfully the personal stuff on here stops a long way short of some of the disgusting stuff I have seen on my football teams (SWFC) forum, one particular peace of pondlife wished one of our players and his family would die in a car car crash!!!!

I wondered that as well.

I don't think that the abuse the players have got since Sunday is over the top. At the moment their is valid reason to criticise all aspects of the club (potentially with the exception of Mick Hogan who got us the Mecca deal). I don't think anyone has got overly personal, and if they did, that is surely what the moderation process is for.

Well said Memony.

I can't believe some people on here questioned Bailey's defence. The lad made 39 tackles.

It's not a lack of leadership as much as a lack of professionalism which certain/the majority of our players seem to struggle with and it's a disgrace for elite players. They have to take responsibility for it rather than hiding behind lack of leadership.

And let in a crucial try.

Normally I'd regard Bailey as a dependable defender. But against Wakey he was skinned in one instance which led straight to a Wakey score. If he's going to let fast lads run around him, then, given that he doesn't offer much else apart from defence, I don't see how he can be selected ahead of Harrison Hansen or Joel Tomkins.

When was he skinned that led to Wakefield scoring? I can only remember him getting skinned once and that didn't lead to a try. He is put out there to make our awful right sided defence more solid imo and I don't think he does that bad of a job.

At the end of the day we all want the club to do well and enjoy the success. This is a fans forum so we have every right to slate players and vent our frustration, and frankly if the players don't like it they shouldn't read anything on this site. Also it is fun to have these types of discussion. I would defend that right absolutely.

However one thing I have noticed about the British culture, is that you are either a hero or you are absolutely zero. There appears to be no middle path, and that seems to apply to this forum. The treatment that has been given to some of the past players has been truly disgusting (e.g. Moran). On the other hand players like Edwards are seen as having done nothing wrong, ever. Surely, in the interest of the club we should find a middle path.

Personally I think as fans, we have a responsibility to moderate our opinions so that they support the club, not tear it down. In other words, I don't believe in criticising individual players, other than to say they are not good enough, and should be replaced (just my opinion). I will also aggressively criticise them if I don't think they are trying hard enough, or have a really poor attitude. After all we are paying fans. Other than that I will not have a go at them.

With respect to Mathers, I am asking myself if he will turn out to be good enough - right now I doubt it, but I still think he needs time. So I will go out there as a fan and support him publicly, because he plays for my team, and represents our interests. The only guy who should really be criticising him, is the coach, and that should be done in a private way.

I will however have a go at the coach - because he is in the firing line. He has to get the tactics, player selection, and discipline right. If that keeps going wrong then to me he deserves criticism. Right now I think the frustration is that we seem to be getting all three of these areas wrong. And although we have been one game off of the GF for the last two years, I do expect improvement, and Brian has had enough time to get it right. Still it is very early days, and I will reserve my criticism until later.

Because as a fan sometimes you just have to bite your tongue in order to support your club - even when they frustrate you.

Right lets start

Mathers at the start of last season i was looking forward to him coming playing here just come back from an injury give the lad a few games to settle in but the fact remains he had more red cards that tries last season (even if you count the playoffs),players went through him like a knife through butter and at times he didn't look like he wanted to be on the pitch

Bailey ok we all know he isn't a but when bailey wasn't on the pitch last season our defence went to pot he does a shed load of work in that area he just needs to inprove his attack

I remeber when noble first signed for us and my girlfriends dad said to me he was chatting with a guy at bradford and most of the fans seem annoyed at noble for some of the decisions he makes and i think thats creeping in here, you cant argue with his record but it's the same old boring rugby week in week out we need second phase in our game cause at the moment our play is so predictable

Jeez Dave, let it go. It's becoming an obsession.

What is you problem with what I posted? Some players seem beyond criticism (of which Lockers is one) while for others they cop more than they deserve and people leap on the bandwagon as its fashionable. That was the point I was making, which I am sure you and everybody else knew.

Dave

an he s still e

Good post memory.

No player goes out to play badly on purpose. And it certainly doesnt help with people booing at the first sign of the game not going our way, the way we as fans should react is to cheer our team on try to lift their game rather than pull them further down as is the case. I believe that if the crowd on sunday had "attempted" to lift the players then the result couldve been different. DOnt get me wrong they are professional and should play as best they can however we all know how verbal support can push you that extra mile!

Basically many fans seem very eaager to get on the players back at the first available option.

Mathers confidence is shot and who can blame him when you have 14,000 blaming you for almost everythig that is wrong with the team. The ironic clapping really doesnt help either.

Chances are he might loose his fullback spot now, if he doesnt how about we try a little supportive cheering rather than Bol$£cking the lad.

I have to agree with Memony. I was taken aback when I joined this forum re the negativity.

Class

Glad you noticed it too Rogues. I thought I was becoming paranoid.

if yas could replace mathers with any full back who would it be?

I'd take a British full-back, if Chris Ashton were ever to return to RL, personally I'd take him.

He's not much of a defender, but then neither is Mathers. And at least Ashton knows his way to the line - from virtually anywhere on the field. Would I take him back? Erm, yes - no question.

Your right when you say he isn't a good defender, but neither is he a bad one. He linked into the attacking play superbly when he was at Wigan. That said, I'm still hoping Mathers will prove everyone wrong this season, however unlikely that may seem.

I'd live up to our names and eat humble pie.

I'd take him back.