It’s a very good start to the season. Teams looks fit and playing for each other which is good to see. Like the look of cust and field is like a new signing.
French coming back will be a good problem to have too.

It’s probably the vaccine



Good to have a rugby input anyway

What makes you think I am stupid? Have you met me?

Let me point out to you, in case you have not grasped it, I did not write the article or conduct the research that supported the conclusion that lockdowns had little impact on public health, it was undertaken by the world renowned Johns Hopkins University. Now the big question is, do I believe what they have published or someone of lesser intelligence posting on a forum? It is a no brainer! By the way, what does moderately mean in this context?

Regarding vaccines, when I was a lad studying science at school I was taught that a vaccine was a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies which provided immunity against one or several diseases. Clearly, the Covid injection did not do that so, by definition, it cannot be classed as a vaccine. Now, if you would like to give me your definition of a vaccine I would be only too willing to consider it.

https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-n ... documents/ The documents which the courts have instructed Pfizer to release seem to conflict with what the the MHRA stated, on 9 September 2021, that the COVID-19 vaccines made by Pfizer can be used as safe and effective booster doses! What makes this even more concerning is that there are now proposals to give the injection to children as young as five and give fourth and fifth boosters to the elderly and vulnerable. For the record, I have had three doses of Pfizer.

https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-n ... documents/ The documents which the courts have instructed Pfizer to release seem to conflict with what the the MHRA stated, on 9 September 2021, that the COVID-19 vaccines made by Pfizer can be used as safe and effective booster doses! What makes this even more concerning is that there are now proposals to give the injection to children as young as five and give fourth and fifth boosters to the elderly and vulnerable. For the record, I have had three doses of Pfizer.

I really didn’t want to get involved in this thread but I can’t resist.

A vaccine trains the body to produce antibodies to help resist a disease that a person has not come into contact with before, we agree on that.

In biology immunity is the ability of the body to resist harmful microorganisms, this comes in varying degrees dependant on the strength of an individuals natural immune system. It will never stop you becoming infected but will train your body to resist the infection. You have vastly oversimplified this part and completely ignored the middle ground.

As to the study on lockdowns, I take that on board and agree to a certain extent. No one had the benefit of hindsight that this study has and should be used to understand the best way to respond in future rather than criticise the past.

The simple fact was at the start they didn’t know how serious this could be so aired on the side of caution. I can’t stand BJ and his cronies but I don’t think they had a choice at the time and held out as long as they could, our lockdowns were never as strict as many other countries. I don’t believe they were ever trying to stop everyone from catching this thing as the only way out was immunity, the lockdowns prevented too many from catching it at once before the vaccine was rolled out thus preventing a total breakdown of the NHS.

The WHO and other official bodies literally changed their definition of what a vaccine is in order to fit them in. Whether you think that is relevant or not is down to personal interpretation but to suggest that someone is stupid for questioning it is totally ridiculous.

"...modifying its definition of the words “vaccine” and “vaccination” on its website.

Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.”

The term “vaccine” also got a makeover. The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to the current “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”

I totally agree Phuzzy. My original post was to share information from a reputable source, whether individuals want to believe it or not is up to them. What is not up for debate are the documents that Pfizer has been forced to release. Had I been given the choice of vaccination I would have chosen Astra Zeneca purely from the point of view that their process was likely to be more rigorous, transparent and wasn't produced for profit. Isn't it funny how the Covid mantra has suddenly taken a back seat despite SAGE insisting we were doomed?

I agree, the Government made the correct decision initially but thereafter they were given poor advice based on bad science. As Phuzzy has said the definition of vaccine has been changed to suit their narrative.

What is your background? Do you work in ICU, virology or vaccine development?

I may, does that matter? I take it that you do given your comments?

Bob, I am still awaiting a response to the points I put to you. I have had the courtesy to reply to your questions now please answer mine.

Just copied a reply from someone who has been providing info throughout the pandemic on statistical/scientific analysis etc

A couple of things here:

1. Pfizer has nothing to do with this data release. It is the FDA who controls this info, and the release was drastically sped up due to a FOIA request. There are 300,000 pages set to be released. The FDA was planning on releasing 500 a month. The judge ordered that it be increased to 55,000 a month.

2. I haven't read the first 55,000 pages. In fact, if you read a page per minute without sleeping, eating, or stopping for a single second, you would still be about 10,000 pages short by the next release.

3. It wasn't being buried, it was being released at a normal rate. This is because that part of the FDA normally has about 10 employees who do this work. They have to redact all personal and proprietary info on every page potentially. And they are juggling, on average, several hundred other FOIA requests. This is a unique ask that requires a ton of external help to pull off.

4. We almost certainly won't read anything new in these documents. The highlights are already released, and the safety profile has been well established with several billion data points now.

I believe I read that the FDA is handling, on average, about 400 FOIA demands at any one time. If you release 500 pages per month for each report, that's 200,000 pages released monthly. That's about 20,000 pages per month per employee. Once again, the antivax crowd uses a nugget of truth to build a bigger lie.

No one is hiding anything

So you're concluding that an organisation worth billions couldn't take on more staff? Interesting viewpoint.

I'm not saying anything is being hidden. I simply don't know. Don't you think the fact that this report would not have been fully released in our lifetimes at the rate that Pfizer wanted to release it and that a high court judge has seen fit to order them to increase it to 55,000 pages (just take a second to take that in.. 500 to 55,000!) is at the very least noteworthy?

Just to add some context to the above, Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna are making profits of roughly $1000 a SECOND. https://reliefweb.int/report/world/pfiz ... -s-poorest

Just to add some context to the above, Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna are making profits of roughly $1000 a SECOND. https://reliefweb.int/report/world/pfiz ... -s-poorest

OK, so you are using the definition of vaccine as one that a teacher (who had a BSc in a generic science subject) used to teach to a bunch of about thirty odd teenages kids of varying intelligence. Do you see that having too much reliance on that as an authority might be the issue. Biology is messy, nothing is 100%.

The vaccines (for they are vaccines) do give protection. We can see this as unvaccinated people are disproportionately more likely to end up in UCI with Covid-19 than if they had been vaccinated. You can trust the official figures, or trust doctors and nurses who work in ICU.

You study you quoted, that I suspect you would not have quoted if it did not agree with you, was indeed co-authored by people at John Hopkin University. It has many departments, and if co-authored by a Danish political pressure group. It is not an independent study. Common sense would tell you to look at comparisons. Sweden did not lock down and suffered many, many deaths is 2020, similar Denmark and Norway locked down early and moderately and had no significant excess deaths. Post vaccination roll-out, Sweden had the highest vaccine uptake and is now doing extremely well, particularly to nations that have not.

And yet 'all-cause' mortality rates stayed the same in both countries in 2020 as in previous years (2015-2018 Sweden and 2015-2019 Norway*)

Conclusion: Neither country faired better than the other when it came to mortality rate unless you take the ridiculous viewpoint that Covid deaths are somehow more important than Cancer deaths, heart disease deaths etc.

Incidentally, the vaccine definition was the one used by the WHO, not some biology teacher. Stop being disingenuous with your responses. It weakens your argument.

*All cause deaths actually fell in Sweden in 2019 so were outside the useful data for comparison.

This is not an argument. The issue is that there is something wrong with yout brain. You are lying about the figures: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb ... df5b386938 No-one give a turd about what your teacher taught you, which is what you referred to. Grown up sin teh vaccine industry know what a vaccine is. You do not know what you are talking about. It can be hard for people to accept that these things are not all about them, and that other people such as those working in ICU and vaccine development actually know more about it. But, it is the case. That is why some people get to work on vaccines, some work in ICU and others sole contribution is talking rubbish on a message board. Take a good look at your life, mate.

This is not an argument. The issue is that there is something wrong with yout brain. You are lying about the figures: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb ... df5b386938 No-one give a turd about what your teacher taught you, which is what you referred to. Grown up sin teh vaccine industry know what a vaccine is. You do not know what you are talking about. It can be hard for people to accept that these things are not all about them, and that other people such as those working in ICU and vaccine development actually know more about it. But, it is the case. That is why some people get to work on vaccines, some work in ICU and others sole contribution is talking rubbish on a message board. Take a good look at your life, mate.

Quote ="Bob8"This is not an argument. The issue is that there is something wrong with yout brain. You are lying about the figures: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb ... df5b386938 No-one give a turd about what your teacher taught you, which is what you referred to. Grown up sin teh vaccine industry know what a vaccine is. You do not know what you are talking about. It can be hard for people to accept that these things are not all about them, and that other people such as those working in ICU and vaccine development actually know more about it. But, it is the case. That is why some people get to work on vaccines, some work in ICU and others sole contribution is talking rubbish on a message board. Take a good look at your life, mate.'" First of all you're clearly not reading before you post as it was someone else who mentioned their teacher, not me. I merely pointed out that it was the definition as used by ALL official world health bodies including the WHO. Secondly I'm not lying about anything as those were Sage's published figures, not mine. Therefore, either they are lying, or you only accept official figures that support your own argument and dismiss any that don't. Thirdly, I think the above tells us who has a problem with their brain, as you put it, and it certainly isn't me. "Take a look at your life". Haha. Aren't you just precious.

Quote ="Bob8"This is not an argument. The issue is that there is something wrong with yout brain. You are lying about the figures: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb ... df5b386938 No-one give a turd about what your teacher taught you, which is what you referred to. Grown up sin teh vaccine industry know what a vaccine is. You do not know what you are talking about. It can be hard for people to accept that these things are not all about them, and that other people such as those working in ICU and vaccine development actually know more about it. But, it is the case. That is why some people get to work on vaccines, some work in ICU and others sole contribution is talking rubbish on a message board. Take a good look at your life, mate.'" First of all you're clearly not reading before you post as it was someone else who mentioned their teacher, not me. I merely pointed out that it was the definition as used by ALL official world health bodies including the WHO. Secondly I'm not lying about anything as those were Sage's published figures, not mine. Therefore, either they are lying, or you only accept official figures that support your own argument and dismiss any that don't. Thirdly, I think the above tells us who has a problem with their brain, as you put it, and it certainly isn't me. "Take a look at your life". Haha. Aren't you just precious.

Let us agree to disagree.
It could be a boring vaccine, that has some effectiveness limited by the immune system, and that the overwhelming majority of experts are right that separate limits infection.

Or...
All the experts have it wrong, we should all listen to anonymous numb-nuts who have never worked in science or healthcare in their lives, that all the scientists on the field are corrupt and incompetent, together with all the doctors and nurses. And, the real experts are boring gits like you. That last sentance might seem insulting, but it is nothing like as bad as the ones just before it.

Fair enough

Why does changing the definition matter? If you're questioning why they changed the definition that's fair enough but it seems like you and others are hinting at a lot more than that.

I'm hinting at nothing. I am merely stating a fact. They changed the definition of 'vaccine' in order to fit the Covid 19 treatment in. I said in the original post that it's up to each individual to decide whether that is relevant to them or not. However, whether you do or don't does not change the fact that it happened.

If you're asking why do I personally think it matters I'm more than happy to answer. I think it's important because transparency of information is important and should not be sacrificed on the alter of "noble lies". Once you start to bend the truth in order to fit a narrative or agenda, even if you perceive that agenda to be a good one, you are on a slippery slope. Who decides which lies are acceptable or not?

Unlike our friend Bob, I am more than happy to accept that someone else's opinion may differ and don't feel the need to insult them if it does. However, despite his protestations the Covid 19 treatments are not vaccines as, in order to classify them as such, the definition of what a vaccine is needed to be changed.

Using this logic we could tweak it again to read "a product that assists a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” which, again, only changes a single word ("stimulates" to "assists"icon_wink.gif. However water would then adhere to this description and we could all happily inject water in the safe knowledge that we're being "vaccinated".

Whether you think truth matters is very much a personal choice. I happen to think it does.

Quite. It is hardly a gotcha.
There is this fake humility, that suggests it is modest to expect his complete lack of knowledge and experience to not mean his opinion and judgement should not be weighed above those who have worked in the ICU, developed and trialled vaccines etc.

The figures I posted were from Sage's own published paper. If you're suggesting Sage don't work in the relevant area and aren't qualified to comment, but you are, I suggest any humility, fake or otherwise, on your part would be an improvement.

You're sharing an opinion and don't work in the relevant area. Hypocrisy much?

Finally. The definition was changed. If you're going to keep pretending it wasn't, please provide evidence.

I've said multiple times now .. including in the very first post with which you took issue...that whether any individual attaches any relevance to that is personal choice (unlike yourself who feels only your opinion is valid). Further, I've explained in detail above why it matters to me (completely ignored by yourself so I'm assuming you have no reasoned, or indeed reasonable, argument to counter it).

I'm not exactly sure what it is about freedom of thought that scares or offends you so much but it's quite clear that you're completely incapable of accepting any view except your own and that debate to you consists of insulting or trying to belittle the person you're debating with.

You have offered nothing to counter any point I've put forward beyond an incorrect table from the Financial Times, some vague insinuation that any viewpoint other than your own must somehow be wrong and that if you belittle the person rather than the argument you are somehow "winning" the debate.

Anyway, put up or shut up time. Provide evidence that they haven't changed the definition in order to recategorise the new treatments as vaccines. It's a very simple request and one you should be able to accomplish without resorting to insults. Unless of course... God forbid...you're actually wrong. Surely not.

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I take the position bob8 is taking. I don't know how these areas work, whether they alter what fits in categories often or not. I just have to trust experts in relevant fields and the vaccines seem to be working.

Did this affect your decision whether to get vaccinated?(or take the shots and boosters if you prefer) and what is the relevance of the profits the Pfizer et al are making?