Maybe so but we should not have consistency for the sake of it. The same applies with Brian Noble earlier in the year. People's arguments for keeping him at the club was that although we weren't performing we had stability. We shouldn't keep players/coaches just because they will be here for the long term they have to be good enough.

I agree maybe we should look to a long term option for there are not many available. Richie Myler/Michael Dobson/Danny Brough are all under contract and I would say only Michael Dobson would be the player I would look at from them and it would take a lot more than 100K to get Hull KR to sell him for that one.

So in this case although it contradicts the point of consistency I made (along with others) about consistency in the halves. It might be better signing someone with the experience of Orford who we can get a few years out of to help bring along Sam Tomkins game and Thomas Leuluai while he is still at the club so that for when he leaves with have Leuluai and Tomkins in the halves and the stability is still there.

Your looking to much into the stability remarks. George Carmont was a stop gap signing and yet he has filled the spot in a much greater way than any of us could hope for.

There is nothing wrong with signing top quality Australians for 2 - 3 seasons because what they bring in those few years is something we can't get with British players. I wouldn't call Barrett's time at the club and yet he only did two years. If Orford could replicate that then we would all be very happy.

You have admitted that Orford and Tomkins would take two/three years to improve well that is two/three years long enough. We only need a new prop forward and a decent halfback and the squad is not far off challenging for honours. I see no reason why we must delay it for this amount of time when after three years the whole squad will have been out of contract. Gleeson/Carmont/Richards/Feka/Hock etc

The problem I have with the argument of bringing in an experienced half back like Matt Orford, who is an excellent player, and would add to our squad immediately, is that they (experienced Aussie players) don't necessarily impart their skills / knowledge to the other players around them. I have never been sure that any of them have ever really contributed to the development of our home grown players.

If we are really serious about developing as a squad I would like to see us take a different development route. I am not an expert on Rugby League, although I have been a Wigan supporter for the past 15 years. But I do know American Football. And the key to success in that sport is not only by buying the right players, but by having the right balance of coaching staff and a stable system [uthat works[/u. Coaching staff are really critical to success in that game (and lots of money and time is spent in building the right team), and yet in Rugby League we seem to only focus on the head coach, and this only as a knee jerk reaction to a losing season.

My view is that Brian Noble is a wiley and experienced coach who does bring alot of stability and man management to the team. But who is not very good in terms of the attacking side of the game goes. As lots of people have commented he appear to be stuck in the big brute power, one up football that led to success at Bradford. However the game has moved on. What we really need to recruit are some coaches who really do know how to develop an attacking side, and who can coach the players on that side of the game. Bring some creativity to our side.

I don't know how this would affect our salary cap position, but that is where I would focus some money. Buy in the best attacking coaches that the game offers. Let Noble sort the discipline, defense, and leadership problems on the field.

Mate, I 100% agree with you on this and have thought the same for a long time.

It is interesting to note the balance of the Wigan coaching set-up until recently - Noble, Wane and Pendlebury were all forwards with, I suspect a more forwards-orientated mentality.............none of them were flair players.

I agree that we need a balance in the coaching set-up - Ged Byrne was IMO, a major loss to the U18s coaching; I hope that Radlinski, Lyon and hopefully others can balance the coaching regime.

This is one area where I really would like to raid Australia. I know some people will take issue with this, but one thing I thought Ian Millward brought to St Helens, was an attacking mentality built on keeping the ball live by throwing it about and providing genuine support play. Bringing somebody like this in, not as a head coach, but by giving them total responsibility for the attack side of our team. This means Noble would have to take more of back seat in this area, and not interfere. I am sure there are other great coaches in this area in the land of OZ.

Need stability at the halves, something longer than 2 years. Orford is a cracking player, but we'll only get 2 years out of him max.

I'd like to see someone come in, who can be with Sam for about 7 years approx.

I'm more thinking along the line of Dobson. Contracts and offers can be made and neg to lure people away from their clubs if clubs are willing to be compensated, after all Gleeson was on contract when we got him.

I still think we need an enforcer prop/capt (Ben Ross esq) and an impact prop (Moi Moi esq).

4 props being- Prescott/Ross Feka/Moi Moi.

Interchange Feka and Moi Moi, 20 mins spells each throughout the game.
Use Ross and Prescott when needed.

Ross and Moi Moi are just examples of the type of players I think we need.

Under the current situation is seems difficult to imagine Fui getting a work visa for the UK. Although we need his type of prop it will have to be someone else.
Why do we only think one prop for next year?
If Coley stays then yes we do, most of us on here think he'll go so we'll need two. My ideal, one enforcer and one playmaker both to be big, experienced and mobile.
We need an experienced top quality playmaker half back to play alongside Sam T. Also I wonder if we need an experienced second rower in the Bryan Fletcher mould. A man who can guide our younger back rowers around the ins and outs of the mid field. Perhaps show them what dummy/option runners can achieve.
Our must haves for next year though are two props and a half back, all experienced.

Fui was just an example. But imagine another impact running hard like Feka, between the two they could hit the line hard for 80mins.

We need to get Fielden and Coley out of Wigan, one of the major issues with our team is our front row.
People rate O Carroll, not me. I want a hard as nails intimidating front row.
Only wanna keep Feka and Prescott from our current 1st teamers.

For me:
Prescott-Rookie style, could learn from an enforcer/cap prop, will be a 60min man, getting bigger and stronger all the time.

Feka-Great impact when on, can turn the game around.
Fui-Imagine a second impact prop running at the line, no let up for defenses.
Ross-Hard as nails, will shout and ball at his team mates for lack of fight. Will take the ball up, leading by example, teaching Prescott how to become a top class prop.

For me we're now only 3 players short of being great.

No need for a backrower.

I want people in here to be like scouts.. so tell me:

Who is the best impact prop available?
Who is the best enforcer/intimidator/capt prop with experience?

Well I guess it depends how much he costs and what position he plays.

At International level he lost his no 7 shirt and ended up at hooker. From time to time it gets said on here he isn't good enough to be a 7 and sometimes that we should play him as a 9 where he had his success Internationally.

So it depends if you think he is a good enough 7, or a good enough 9 to get rid of one of Riddell or McIllorum because if he did play 9 that would have to happen IMO.

If we want to take a long term view then I'd try and find a new 7 (or 6 if Sam T is really a 7) playing TL as a 9 and have the pig flying back to Australia but then he has a three year deal and TL is the one out of contract at the end of the season and will be the one offered a lower wage.

Dave

Ross is a very good player but I think 2 better options would be Luke Bailey and Petero Civonaceva

Ross' form last year was slightly down on the year before and he's been injured so far this season whereas Bailey and Petero have both been in fantastic form this season

Bailey and Petero are both captains of their respective clubs and either would be absolutely perfect for us. Bailey would be my preferred option due to younger age and would want less salary

I was referring to the season 2010. Fielden isn't OOC until end of 2010.
Although I do wonder if we get the type of props that we both rate and hope we get then Fielden may improve.
We do need two new props for 2010 if Coley goes, a top quality half back as I mentioned. The back rower was just a thought"!
IL said at the FF we may be loaning out some younger players. That hasn't happened yet. If he does then it may free up cap money to bring in a prop this year. With HMRC now chasing clubs for outstanding tax then who knows may suddenly be willing to let a decent prop go? They may have to grab the cash and possibly pay some of his wages just to get their hands on some readies!
Does anyone know if the cheque for Gleeson was made out to Warrington or HMRC?
I would love to know the clubs who are cash rich and those who are scratching around to have enough money for their next staff payday!
Wouldn't take too much working out!

Is there anyway of seeing play contracts in the SL and NRL?

The only problem is there are no real top quality Props that fit the bill playing in SL. You could argue Morley and Peacock, but there is no way they will be going anywhere even if clubs are hard up.

The fact this is the case is why i am happy to see Gleeson signed as he is a non quota player. This means we can comfortably fit in 2 quality overseas players for 09 should we need to, i certainly hope 1 is taken by a front row forward as that is where we really need to add. One of Bailey,Petro,Ross (if he is available) Price, Mason would do us a world of good in my opinion, would only look to use the second available spot if we could lure a top quality half and i mean top quality, otherwise go with what we have.

O'Meley? Perhaps?

I'm stuck on Ross for my first choice enforcer/capt prop. Just need another impact prop.

We are stuck with Fielden for 2010, so it will have to be a gradual process, and in 2010 we would have to look towards replacing if we signed them one of Price/Petro.

I know we have had this discussion in the past but you make it sound as though we can simply get rid of players as and when we want highlighting Coley and Fielden, sadly we cannot do this without it counting against the cap, we know Coley is gone at the end of the year but not Fielden.

Thank God for that !! I thought it was only me, Steve Price or Luke Bailey both out of contract next year, either would be perfect, a classy stand off and move Sam to scrum half..........light at the end of the tunnel

Petro in for Coley this season and then LMS in for Fielden the season after.

I'd liken LMS to the likes of Senior, Henry Paul & Ellis who were head and shoulders above the other members of their original teams. You could see they had what I takes to be a very good players and they were snapped up at the first opportunity and all went on to achieve a hell of a lot in the game. Mark my words if we miss out on LMS one of Leeds or Saints will sign him and he’ll get better year after year and become a club legend for them.

Also in regards to O’Carroll when are people gonna realise in the era of the SC you can’t have top class players in every position? We are in the era of the good squad player just look at Ablett, Gardner, Bailey, Hargreaves & Kirk. All are indispensible for their clubs as they hardly earn anything but still do a decent job. It allows more their teams to have that little bit extra to spend on more world class players.

O’Carroll is as many have said just a good ‘SL player’ but he’s on far less than Coley but yet is just as good at the prop stuff? Teams like Saints and Leeds have average fourth choice props likes Bailey or Hargreaves on very low wages and it allows them to spread the quality around.

The thing for me is I have always thought we needed a did strong prop, someone who can carry the ball in and intimidate other pack's i.e. Asotasi or L Bailey even Peacock. But what would be the point We as a club don't use our Props enough. Instead we use 2nd rowers as battering rams. If we look at Saints or Leeds they don't let there 2nd rowers take the ball up as much as us. The only prop we use consistently is Feka for 14mins each half (if were lucky).
We do need another prop but we need to keep Fielden (work rate), Feka (impact) and one of the other 2, (O' Carroll & Prescott).

I'm generally in agreement. I think TL has improved constantly, is an OK 7 and a good 9. I wouldn't object to seeing a new SH but he would have to be someone [isignificantly[/i better than TL and willing to stay 5 yrs minimum. Even then IMO TL moves to 9 and someone (McIllorum) moves out, probably permanently since he will be around 25 when Piggy's contract is up.



All in all Piggy's looking like a poor investment, as I have predicted he would all along.

I'm aware of the contract situation with Fielden, but remember, Gleeson was in contract and when he came to us. I'm not suggesting we'll be able to break the contract with Fielden, just that it's not always black and white.

I generally agree, I honestly feel Tommy can be an outstanding 9. He was arguably the best no.9 in the WC which is outstanding. I honestly feel we have a potentially one of the best 9's going but played in the wrong position.

Next target so i am told is a new Number 7 Smith will be leaving and a couple of others going on loan things should start to take shape over the next few weeks

Any names been mentioned?

Very true nothing is ever set in stone as Gleeson has proven.

Sadly from Wigan’s pov the Fielden situation is different as even if he was used on our part as a make weight in a future deal for someone else he'd still have to agree to the move. Why would our top earner want to leave and literally cost himself that much money? No one is gonna pay him anywhere what he’s on now so he’d be straight onto a loss add to that no other big team will be in for him and it’s looking more likely he’ll be here till the end.

It makes sense from Fielden’s point of view to see his contract out and try to pick his form up next season so at least he’ll be looking at a half decent contract as he’ll be in some sort of form.

Replacing Coley this season with someone like Petro/Mason really is the best we can hope for prop wise sadly. Lets just thank God Fielden hasn’t got years left to run and replace him with LMS when he leaves.

Btw the more and more you think about it Dobbo is realistically the only player out there who ticks all the boxes we need. Young but experienced, talented and a proven SL player means he should be our no.1 target even if it means coughing some more money up. Dobbo if he stays a while in SL could very well be a future England HB 2 possibly?