I don't think Wigan did defend his actions. What I mean is, if a Saints player did what Flower did and then we defended him, after the fuss we made over Flower, that would make us hypocrites.

There was one instigator, two protagonists.
The instigator was not dealt with, wrongly. The other protagonist was dealt with, rightly.
Both should have been dealt with in the same manner, sent off!

Watch it again. Flower started it. Hohaia then escalated it and Flower reacted appalingly. Hohaia wasn't the instigator but he got off lightly with 1 game.

Not this tired old tosh again. LH, in keeping with standard saints tactics last season, ran a deliberate obstruction line. Flower did what any player from any team would likely do, and ran through him. So if you want to lay blame at an instigator, then look no further than Mr Brown, who presumably laid out the sneaky obstruction tactics. If you think that is nonsense then you will have to discredit all the Saints fans blaming Mr Wane for Flower's aggressive reaction. Before you claim it's nonsense look how many people - fans, pundits and ex referees alike were surprised at how Turner got away with some blatant obstructions towards the end of the season. only matched by the ever sneaky Danny Maguire.
Perhaps if Wigan had been as good at it then Makinson would have ended on his , and not over the line for a try.

Watch that try again, the Wigan player (Bateman) did the exact same thing as Hohaia ... Except chose to block Turner not Makinson - players are allowed to stand their ground etc.

But yes, it's boring old ground, and there's no need to go through it again

Accordingly*

This is a red herring being thrown about predominantly by some Saints fans to try to absolve their player of any responsibility, YG, but I'm a little surprised you're peddling it too to be honest. What Flower did initially is something that happens in many, if not most, games in SL. In fact, as pointed out above, it happened several other times in this game alone and was worthy of no more than a penalty (and even that is debatable!). The first action that took it beyond what was acceptable, and for which he later received a ban, was Hohaia's. What Flower ultimately did was unacceptable but even so most people have been balanced enough to say his initial reaction was sort of understandable. No one has said the same of Hohaia's elbow to the face. To say that Flower started it is akin to saying the ref started it by blowing his whistle to begin the game! Players are not, and should not, be at liberty to police minor infringements during a game in any manner they like, and definitely not by running 10 metres or so to elbow someone in the face. The escalation of this incident was Hohaia's doing. Whilst that doesn't excuse Flower's behaviour, to try and lay all the blame at his door purely because he made the initial push is nothing short of ridiculous in the context of a game of rugby league!

Excellent post.... Some posters do prefer to see things with just the one eye...

I haven't tried to absolve Hohaia of any responsibility.
I did say in my post that he escalated the situation.
I said he got off lightly with his ban.
At no point have I ever said the blame lies purely at Flower's door.

I'm not sure how you have interpreted that as me trying to "peddle a red herring!"

So you condone his actions and feel he was right to react the way he did? If so, people like you need to stay away from rugby grounds as only a brainless thug would feel Flower acted "accordingly."

I don't have to look at it again.
You are referring to the push and shove incident some 25 meters back that was next to nothing and certainly not warranting a penalty against either player.
From there Flower chased the kick, was passed the ball and dropped it. At that point Hohaia, having run the 25 mtrs chasing Flower and not the play, smashed his elbow/forearm into Flowers jaw. Flower reacted as he did and was sent off.
Trouble is Hohaia was not sent off. What he did warranted a sending off in any game anywhere any time. The match officials both on and off the field messed up massively.
It is my personal opinion that Flower's sending off didn't lose Wigan the match it was equally just as much that Hohaia was not sent off when he should have been won the game for Saints.
Flower's sending off was the right decision, Hohaia not being sent off was the wrong decision.
IMO both teams should have been at 12 men for the remainder of the game.
We would then have had a good Grand Final and not the foregone conclusion that is was after 2-3mins,

Presumably by "push and shove" you mean Flower hitting Hohaia in the back of the head and knocking him to the floor?

Those blinkers are out in force here.

Are we really going over the Flower incident again?

So you feel that LH acted accordingly?

No. He wrongly escalated the situation and was very lucky to get the ban he did. I've said that already.

Hohaia should have been sent off.
He wasn't that was the difference.

I don't think any Saints fan would have too many complaints had Hohaia been sent off too.

As for it being the difference, I guess we'll never know.

No, I understand that. You have been balanced in your assessment off what I've seen and that's what I meant by being surprised you were peddling the opinion that Flower 'started it' (which was the red herring I was referring to). In the context of a game of rugby league, his actions no more started it than any of the other penalties given away could be said to have started it. An offence of the type he committed did not deserve Hohaia's response, just as Hohaia dis not deserve to be hit whilst on the floor for his. There is a level of acceptable behaviour that both players overstepped. The first instance of 'overstepping' was Hohaia's.

I agree mate. Hohaia escalated the situation beyond the reasonable. Perhaps I was being pedantic in saying "Flower started it." It was his action that triggered the events, perhaps that's a better way of putting it. But I fully agree that Hohaia took it to another level, as did Flower in response.

Still?

Surely discussing things like this in a reasonable, civilised manner is what these forums are made for? Fair enough if people start trolling and name-calling then step in, but that isn't the case.

We could always fill these boards with inane off-season tripe such as "who is your best ever winger with red hair" or "top 5 away kits" if you prefer.

I think I would prefer that actually rather than re-hash the Flower incident over and over. New thread agenda, answer a typical pre-season question and ask another. I'll get us started.

Ginger winger - Surely it has to be Brett Dallas. The guy had blistering pace, my favourite moment of his was when he chased down Mark Calderwood over the full length of the pitch to save a try. A greatly underrated area of his game was his ability to get a quick ptb as well, always got us on a roll when he returned a kick or took a scoot in. He didn't half take a lot of knocks to his cheekbones for his troubles though!

Who was the most improved Wigan player last season? (inc players who were at other clubs in 2013)

Dallas was a great player. David Hodgson is the only other ginger winger I can think of off the top of my head.

Dan Sarginson surely has to be the most improved? He was one under the heading of "potential" at London but by the end of the season he looked like a proper established Super League centre.

Damning Sarg with faint praise there, by the end of the season he looked like an international player, in fact he is just that.

But since we are being nice to each other. How about Jordan Turner? Early on in the season, some Saints fans had given up on him as a centre, then a change of position and hey presto, it looks like you have a player.

Haha don't be so defensive and touchy. I rate Sarginson very highly and I've said as much on several occasions. His form improved as the season went on, hence my comment. I don't think even the most blinkered Wigan fan would say he started the season as strongly as he finished it. It wasn't faint praise at all.

Turner had a good season in 2013, in fact he was named as our player of the year but he was decidedly average for the early part of 2014. His move to 13 (half back in reality) seemed to bring out some confidence in him and the added responsibility, that could have broke him, actually inspired some great performances from him in big games.

I still think he'll start next season at centre though.