Don't think anyone on here would argue that last year especially with Holbrook, Thompson, Roby and Walmsley Saints were a million miles in front of us, last time we played them all that was left was Roby and if it weren't for a one on one miss from Isa it would've been a nilling.
If we meet them again the key will be controlling Walmsley, we certainly shouldn't have an inferiority complex about playing them anymore.
As for next season I don't really follow the NRL so I've no idea if Saints new forwards are up to anything but if we can consistently keep Bullock/Singleton/Havard and one other on the field I think we'll be in pretty good shape.

I think YG's post highlights the one key hole in next year's squad - prop.

Whilst I think we've got some decent options in Bullock, Singleton, Havard & Partington, we're probably just missing one more consistent meter maker. It doesn't need to be a superstar, more a Kylie Leuluai, Mickey Para or Andy Coley type player and we'd be laughing.

Incredibly frustrating to think we've got Flower, Clubb & Burgess all taking up cap room. You could get one good player + change out of what we pay those guys.

I think you have Paasi wrong. In 2018 he played 23 times, starting 22 at front row. In 2019 he had the exact same stats. This year because of Covid-19 he has played 6 times, all off the bench. So 44 out of his last 52 games were started at prop. He isn't a hybrid anything. Matautia falls more into that category to be fair.

Paasi, Walmsley and Lees will be our regular props with Amor and LMS as 4th choice/cover along with Dan Norman who is a huge lump coming from London. I know little about him though to be honest. He could be another Richard Beaumont who doesn't play a game or he could be another late bloomer like Walmsley. You never know.

As I say, I think on the whole our pack is better as a collective but I don't expect everyone to share that opinion. You're right to say your back row is stronger. Nowhere have I suggested otherwise. Not wanting to drag up the old "combined 13" debate but in such a scenario, Batemen and Farrell would clearly walk in. However so would Walmsley, Roby and Knowles in my opinion.

On the flip side, Saints fans might interpret that game as being a Lomax mistake and a Leuluai forward pass off a draw



My point being you can throw a couple of ifs and buts into any game and the outcome changes. The fact of the matter is it was a very close game which had one score in it with 9 mins to go. Wigan were better on the night and deserved the win, BUT "if it weren't for a one on one miss from Isa it would've been a nilling" is stretching the truth somewhat surely haha.

I understand he generally plays with 8 or 10 on his back at club level (2nd row for Tonga). My point was more concerned with how he plays rather than where. He has a strong-running 2nd row approach with a good offload and reminds me of a BMM type rather than a metre making grafter like Walmsley. I'm not saying he isn't good, more that his game isn't suited to the Walmsley role which leaves you in a similar position to this year (especially with Woolfe still in charge). I think he and Walmsley could make a very effective partnership, as it goes.

As I said earlier, once you move past the starting 2, it becomes a lot less convincing that even your front row is 'better'. Lees is an unknown quantity. He has shown very little since his return. He may come good but it's not a given. Then we're into your 4th prop or, to put it another way, a prop that will play as often and for as many minutes as Walmsley and Paasi, and that, like it or not, is LMS or Amor. That's weak. If he was 5th/6th choice I'd take your point. However, he's essentially your Clubb; someone who will be playing far more than he should.

Roby has been a great. He's still excellent, but he's coming to the end of his career. End of next season, when the big games come around, he'll be a year older. As good as he is he's been no better than Powell this year (obviously you may disagree). Next year, who knows?

Where I would absolutely disagree though is on your contention that yours is better as a unit. You've had 'better' packs than us for years yet we've almost exclusively been able to bully you. We showed it again that, minus Walmsley, we were able to bully you. Next year we won't be starting with the same disadvantage as we have over the last decade or so. Even if you think you still shade it, I think you'd have to agree it's much closer than in recent seasons.

Add another top prop, which rumour suggests we are doing, and the balance would tip strongly in our favour.

I agree it's closer since we lost Thompson and you gained Singleton. But last year we beat you 4 times and all 4 times we absolutely destroyed your pack. In the semi final last year I think your starting props made less than 20m between them. I wouldn't be making a judgement based purely on our last meeting which a few people (not necessarily you) seem to be doing.

last year you had Holbrook

I was typing out my reasons why Saints aren’t what they were last year and why I see longer term cracks appearing but it was like an essay. This sums it up very neatly. He could go on to be the best coach in the game and he’s a huge loss. Saints are still favourites for the title IMO but they’re going to have some job on trying to keep their favourites tag as guys like Roby and Coote walk away, on the back of the exits of Thompson but in particular Holbrook already.

I know very very little of their new signings for 2021. I read about the place and they seem to be solid enough but an improvement on Thompson/Taia? I’d be amazed if they were and if you’re replacing players with ones not as good, you ain’t improving.

I think that’s a good point but I would counter with the fact out Props at the time were at both extremes of the career spectrum.

We have Flower and Clubb who are near the end of their careers and we have the rest of the lads who were relative novices.

This year the younger lads have gained more valuable experience and the older lads have been relied on less. We look to be moving on our ageing lads whilst Saints are signing them up for another year.

I don’t expect t us to win SL this year, I believe it is a year too soon for our young Props, as was highlighted in the semi against Leeds whose more experienced Props did a number on them, next year though I think they will be a match for most with a good off season behind them, another years experience.

Bullock is twice the player he was last year and getting better. Same for Powell and Partington. Last year we didn't have Havard or Singleton (and perhaps another prop still to come). Can you honestly point to a single area where your pack has improved compared to last year? That's before we even get to the seeming gulf in how they're performing under Woolfe compared to under Holbrook.

And of course Bateman wasn't here last year either...

Roby is better this year, which is crazy at his age but it’s true.
Bentley has improved dramatically too.

We have missed Thompson massively of course and he’s probably the biggest factor in us not being as dominant this year, moreso than the gulf between Woolf and Holbrook. Although I do agree with NK that Holbrook is a fantastic coach with a huge career ahead of him.

I agree with you in terms of your pack being on the up, not doubting that. I’m just saying until you’re consistently getting on top of us in that department we can’t write the Saints pack off which is what it looks like is happening here. You’ve beaten us once in 2 years and we were missing our best prop. So I think I little bit of perspective is needed that’s all.

But there’s no denying Wigan’s pack is on the up like I said and you’re looking stronger for 2021, whereas Saints have an element of the unknown about us with 3 new signings coming in. If those signings turn out to be similar to Sia Soliola or Zeb Taia for example then we are laughing. If they turn out like Josh Perry and Chris Flannery then we have an issue

You signed Liam Watts

Bently is a 2nd row not a prop

thats correct but 1 of them we had 80 percent or more of our first team players missing, you cant have it both ways

Haha I wasn’t even counting that one to be fair. In terms of a gauge of where the two teams are at right now that game is completely irrelevant.

I'll take your opinion on Bentley as I'm sure you know more about him than me but I think I've seen most Saints games this year and he certainly hasn't stuck out as anything special in my mind in the same way as, say, Havard has, even allowing for cherry and white specs. Roby has been good this season, no doubt, but better than last? Anecdotally I'd take issue with that but if the stats bear you out then fair enough.

Tbh though, a youngster improving and Roby still not losing much (or slightly better if that's correct) is not enough to keep you ahead of our pack next year. My opinion, of course. We are offering way too much improvement next year to still be behind a pack that's basically standing still at best or, I'd argue, going backwards since the loss of Thompson.

P.S. just seen your post on Redvee. I agree that Sezer would make a massive difference to you and would definitely go some way to evening things up next year. Is that a possibility or just a wish list sort of thing?

Just a bit

Definitely a wish list. I think 7 is an obvious weak point for us. Fages is out of contract on 2021, as is Sezer. One can dream....

Wigan are getting awfully confident aren't they after matching (note not bettering) our Walmsley-free pack in one game.



I'll be waiting for the play-offs before acknowledging how poor we have become. . . . I think that game was a bigger one for Wigan than us and it showed, interested to see the play-off rematch.

As for all this Saints pack is much weaker without Walmsley - so what, he plays for us! It's like saying your backs are weaker without French, it's pointless.

I wouldn't have liked to see the scoreline if we bettered your pack (well, I would)

I agree thouhh, slightly too confident given what happened against Salford and Leeds

Over confident? not really. We on the Wigan forum are saying how good our side is shaping up and its pretty clear its getting stronger. Are we not allowed to be confident? I know over on Redvee that we are all six fingered, we have a very average team, French is s#*t, Lomax is better than Hastings etc etc but shock horror, we don't share that view. A personal opinion is that Saints are still the side to beat but nullify Walmsley and it exposes your side for what it is, powderpuff with zero creativity. Heavily reliant on Walmsley making the yards and Roby scooting off the back of them. Your 2 year era of dominance i suspect is coming to an end but you are making improvements, its usually a trophy a decade or something like that isn't it? You are still on 1 trophy though for all this dominance, not really the world beaters you think you are.

Contrary to what some fans think I still think our team is a little behind Saints, especially in the front row which is frustrating as I guess between George Burgess and Tony Clubbs wage we could afford any prop in the league. That said I think we’re getting closer and the recent game shows that and if we meet in the final I think it’s will be a close game. As for next season we should improve, we’ve got some young props who should improve and maybe Saints have a few more older player who will decline, recruitment wise I’m not sure who is winning so far, we’ve got Bateman and someone who could be anything in Field, Saints have signed an Ozzie international who is yet to hit his peak (although lost his way) and I think Thompson will go well too, I certainly think it will be the 2 of us at the top challenging again but injuries can soon change that.

Calm down mate - I've already said pages ago you look good for next year

I don’t think there’s an over confidence at all. I look around and see most people acknowledging Saints are better than us and will be favourites should we meet in Hull in two weeks. We can sit here and criticise Wiganers for pinning their hopes on that victory two weeks ago (with Saints missing Walmsley) and showing too much confidence because of it but by the same token we can question if Saints fans are putting too much importance on Walmsley. I listen to Saints fans and they basically seem to suggest that Walmsley comes in and all is good with the world and we stand no chance. Was it that simple? The result may have been different but after a 4 try to 1 victory, would he have been worth 3 try’s?

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Saints are still a better side than us with Walmsley in but not by a lot. They would be favourites going in to a game with both teams at full strength but would it be a shock if Wigan beat them? Not really. This isn’t 2019, Saints don’t have Thompson, they don’t have Holbrook and Wigan are an improved side.

Well I would agree if we were actually talking about this year but as we're talking about next ..