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| Quote ="Deano G"Touch judges do have a narrow role compared with football assistant referees (the name kind of gives away their higher status!).
You may not like it, but this is what the laws say:
"Enforce Laws 2. The Referees shall enforce the Laws of the Game and may impose penalties for any deliberate breach of the Laws. He shall be the sole judge on matters of fact except those relating to touch and touch in-goal (see para. 11 below)."
We have one ref in RL and subordinate officials.
Except in the NRL, where they have 2 refs, but hey, what do they know about RL? They're obviously as wide of the mark as me...
even if u have took time to find the rule book u still havent got a clue what goes on in realitk
I haven't listened to the intercom but I have stood by pitchside many times over the years and I have not witnessed the kind of high quality and frequent interaction between TJs and referees that you believe goes on. If that happened regularly you would expect referees to pause before making the decisions on knock-on or ball steal to hear what the TJ had to say, instead you have the referee instantly making a judgment call, which is often wrong (or failing to see something, such as missing forward passes).
We saw a lot of that on Sunday and it isn't fair to single Silverwood out.'"
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| Quote ="Wigan28/Leeds18 Andy"Given the extremely defensive attitude you've taken we can only assume you have some vested interest in the refereeing community. Given the ludicrous response above is it any wonder fans and coaches scratch their heads when they don't know from week to week how the ref is going to interpret the laws and guidelines of the game.'"
never ref a game in my life and never intend to because no matter how hard u tried there is allways people to slag you off ,cheat ,liar dont know the rules and many more offensive ones that u may have used
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| Quote ="Bovrick"Why would it be undermining the ref? They both have their own jobs to do, as long as each are doing their respective jobs as well as they can, and only the best people we can find making it to the top games, there doesn't seem to be a place to complain beyond the odd one off annoyance post match.'"
Whats the point in the ref asking the VR to look at a specific incident if the VR will nit pick at every little thing and watch the same clips over and over hoping to see something?
Take the incident when Hansen (i think it was) was pulled up for obstruction. What if the ref on the field had deemed it to be legal, but then the VR disagrees and announces in front of the whole stadium that it was offside.
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| Quote ="hare&hounds"even if u have took time to find the rule book u still havent got a clue what goes on in realitk'"
Ahhh. So let's forget the rules, which support my argument, as does the position in Australia. Its the "reality" that matters. Your "reality".
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| Quote ="hare&hounds"and even if they were perfect everytime u lot would still be moaning'"
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| so the ref never gets a call from the tj or even changes his mind with info the tj gives him
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| Quote ="Mr. Grumpy"Whats the point in the ref asking the VR to look at a specific incident if the VR will nit pick at every little thing and watch the same clips over and over hoping to see something?
Take the incident when Hansen (i think it was) was pulled up for obstruction. What if the ref on the field had deemed it to be legal, but then the VR disagrees and announces in front of the whole stadium that it was offside.'"
Asking them to look at a specific incident allows them to skip straight to that point if there's no suspicion elsewhere - if when getting to that point you notice something blatantly wrong that should strike off the try, what do you do - ignore it?
As for the VR announcing that the ref was wrong? Good. Shows we care more about playing to the rules than feeding an ego. But a word in the ear would obviously be the best way to let a man in the stands help the man on the field. The big screen is obviously just a showpiece for the fans/sky.
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| Quote ="hare&hounds"never ref a game in my life and never intend to because no matter how hard u tried there is allways people to slag you off ,cheat ,liar dont know the rules and many more offensive ones that u may have used'"
Well given your stance in this thread at least something good has come out of it.
People just want consistency so everyone knows where they stand. The lack of consistency in interpretation is appalling at the moment and that is down to Cummins rather than the referees.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"I personally don't have a problem with how the VR was utilised on that occasion. For a start, it was a particularly long play so it's reasonable for the decision to be longer than usual. It also occurred as the last play of the game and one which decided the winner so not only was it important to get it right but there was no need for a quick decision as the game was over. The only thing that bamboozles me is fans who think the default position should be "try" and that attack errors or good defence shouldn't be recognised accordingly.
Why would it ever be ok to award a try where a player has scored from a double movement, knock on, obstruction, or hasn't actually put the ball down?
'"
It wouldn't, but as that wasn't what I was saying it's an irrelevant point.
The VR should look at whatever it specifically is that has concerned the referee about a try. Not go through every single little thing leading up to it in case there was something he missed - which is very clearly what happened in the Catalan v Saints match, and has happened in Wigan matches. For Heaven's sake, at one time these idiots were allowed to go back three or four tackles - and that's what they used to do, until it became too embarrassing even for the RFL and was abolished.
By some folk's logic, we should video ref every moment of every game before deciding who the winner is, or failing that, all the other 'long plays' in case they too affected the outcome.
In any case, as the VR is only used in Sky matches, it can hardly be deemed that important a tool by the referees and their controller.
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| Nothing will happen until the chairmen & coaches collectively grow a pair & demand Cummings goes or bring in someone who knows what they're doing bangs the refs heads together & puts proper standards in place.
They're all scared of saying anything that could be interpreted as disrespectful or "bringing the game into disrepute", even when it's what everyone else is thinking.
The RFL board & refs make North Korea a progressive democracy in comparison.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"It wouldn't, but as that wasn't what I was saying it's an irrelevant point.'"
I thought you were suggesting that VRs should [inot [/ilook at those transgressions when adjudicating tries. thee on who mentioned them you know..
Quote The VR should look at whatever it specifically is that has concerned the referee about a try. Not go through every single little thing leading up to it in case there was something he missed'"
So are you or are you not suggesting that VRs shouldn't look at the transgressions you listed?
Quote which is very clearly what happened in the Catalan v Saints match, and has happened in Wigan matches.'"
And if it had transpired that Catalans had knocked on, why should they be awarded a try? (A paraphrase of my earlier question, you will notice.)
Quote By some folk's logic, we should video ref every moment of every game before deciding who the winner is, or failing that, all the other 'long plays' in case they too affected the outcome.'"
And that would be a strawman. Just because I don't think the VR should be as limited as you do doesn't mean I think it should be unlimited.
Quote In any case, as the VR is only used in Sky matches, it can hardly be deemed that important a tool by the referees and their controller.'"
Are you really suggesting that the limited use of the VR is down to the referees and their controller based on their opinion of it's efficacy rather than an inability to fund it?
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| Quote ="hare&hounds"never ref a game in my life and never intend to because no matter how hard u tried there is allways people to slag you off ,cheat ,liar dont know the rules and many more offensive ones that u may have used'"
So your position is basically it's hard job, they'll never be perfect (but they're better than you lot would ever be), and even if they were perfect, you lot (who know nothing by the way) would still be moaning.
Thanks for your contribution.
This thread is about the lack of consistency from the head of referees to the interpretation of rules by officials on the day to the role of the VR who is only used for 2 games in each round. Originally I had high hopes for an improvement in ref standards when they became full-time - it hasn't happened though and for that I blame the man in the charge.
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| do you think the NRL refs have improved by the fact there are now 2 of them on the pitch
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"I thought you were suggesting that VRs should [inot [/ilook at those transgressions when adjudicating tries. thee on who mentioned them you know..
'"
No, I wasn't. I was saying they shouldn't try to find anything they can to disallow. Which is what seems to happen on far too many occasions, the dummy runners for example, as on certain occasions that is stretching the notion of obstruction to near-absurdity. What direction was he going in? Let's slow it down even more to see if his body language suggests he had intent ... gimme a break.
Quote
So are you or are you not suggesting that VRs shouldn't look at the transgressions you listed?'"
They should, but only if those transgressions are specifically asked for by the referee.
Quote
And if it had transpired that Catalans had knocked on, why should they be awarded a try? (A paraphrase of my earlier question, you will notice.)'"
They shouldn't. But that doesn't mean you should search high and low on ther off-chance they made any other infringement.
Quote
And that would be a strawman. Just because I don't think the VR should be as limited as you do doesn't mean I think it should be unlimited.
'"
Unfortunately it doesn't matter what you think, or what I think for that matter, as the evidence thus far is that it's used fairly indiscriminately and quite inconsistently.
Quote
Are you really suggesting that the limited use of the VR is down to the referees and their controller based on their opinion of it's efficacy rather than an inability to fund it?'"
No, I guess it's down to funding, but however you spin it, it doesn't look good that it's used so extensively and pedantically in Sky matches - as if it's vitally important we 100% guraantee there was nothing the ref didn't see - and yet we can happily do without it for all the rest.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"No, I wasn't. I was saying they shouldn't try to find anything they can to disallow. Which is what seems to happen on far too many occasions, the dummy runners for example, as on certain occasions that is stretching the notion of obstruction to near-absurdity. What direction was he going in? Let's slow it down even more to see if his body language suggests he had intent ... gimme a break.'"
But why shouldn't they try to find anything that might disallow the try? Only tries should be awarded, right? It seems to come back to this notion that "try" should be the default position. As for the obstruction problem, it is one of interpretation, imo, caused by different VRs having their own personal ideas about what counts as obstruction. The solution isn't to instruct VRs not to look for obstruction but to instruct them all to look for the same thing.
Quote They should, but only if those transgressions are specifically asked for by the referee. '"
And if the on-field referee misses something that the video referee sees? Why should he be compelled to ignore it in favour of awarding 4 points for a non-try?
Quote They shouldn't. But that doesn't mean you should search high and low on ther off-chance they made any other infringement.'"
I'm not convinced anybody "searches high and low for an infringement" as opposed to simply "looks for an infringement".
Quote Unfortunately it doesn't matter what you think, or what I think for that matter, as the evidence thus far is that it's used fairly indiscriminately and quite inconsistently.'"
I wouldn't say it's used indiscriminately. I'd say it's used every time an on-field referee needs it because he can't be sure if a try has been scored. As for consistency, that's a refereeing issue rather than a video refereeing issue.
Quote No, I guess it's down to funding, but however you spin it, it doesn't look good that it's used so extensively and pedantically in Sky matches - as if it's vitally important we 100% guraantee there was nothing the ref didn't see - and yet we can happily do without it for all the rest.'"
But you can't say it's down to funding and then say they happily do with out it. The fact that it isn't used across the board isn't some indication that referees or the RFL don't rate it, which that implies. If it's down to funding then they are making do without it [ibecause of funding[/i, not because they think it's poor, and would use it across the board if they could.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"But why shouldn't they try to find anything that might disallow the try? Only tries should be awarded, right? It seems to come back to this notion that "try" should be the default position. As for the obstruction problem, it is one of interpretation, imo, caused by different VRs having their own personal ideas about what counts as obstruction. The solution isn't to instruct VRs not to look for obstruction but to instruct them all to look for the same thing.
And if the on-field referee misses something that the video referee sees? Why should he be compelled to ignore it in favour of awarding 4 points for a non-try?
I'm not convinced anybody "searches high and low for an infringement" as opposed to simply "looks for an infringement".
I wouldn't say it's used indiscriminately. I'd say it's used every time an on-field referee needs it because he can't be sure if a try has been scored. As for consistency, that's a refereeing issue rather than a video refereeing issue.
But you can't say it's down to funding and then say they happily do with out it. The fact that it isn't used across the board isn't some indication that referees or the RFL don't rate it, which that implies. If it's down to funding then they are making do without it [ibecause of funding[/i, not because they think it's poor, and would use it across the board if they could.'"
I’m sure you’d love to hold question-and-answer sessions ad infinitum, but attempting to pick holes in this argument by focusing purely on whichever last post I happened to make will not change the overall fact that the VR is over-used to the point of self-indulgence, in which respect it is a wider reflection of our current referees (and their controller’s) egoism and pedantry. Enough said.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"I’m sure you’d love to hold question-and-answer sessions ad infinitum, but attempting to pick holes in this argument by focusing purely on whichever last post I happened to make will not change the overall fact that the VR is over-used to the point of self-indulgence, in which respect it is a wider reflection of our current referees (and their controller’s) egoism and pedantry. Enough said.'"
The VR is asked to look at a particular "infirngement" offside, obstruction, foot in touch etc but sometimes they do go over board the Catalans last minute try against Saints for instance, it could end up with a RU type call to the VR "is there any reason I cannot award a try"
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| "it could end up with a RU type call to the VR "is there any reason I cannot award a try"
Yes, 5 play the balls earlier on the halfway line there was a bit of obstruction by the player who played the ball. he stepped 6 inches forward to prevent the marker making a tackle....pmsl..... Let's have a system more like in cricket.. the ref gives his decision and the team the decision goes against can refer it to the VR but have to state on what grounds... they can only make 2 wrong referals and that's it....lol
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| Quote ="pie.warrior""it could end up with a RU type call to the VR "is there any reason I cannot award a try"
Yes, 5 play the balls earlier on the halfway line there was a bit of obstruction by the player who played the ball. he stepped 6 inches forward to prevent the marker making a tackle....pmsl..... Let's have a system more like in cricket.. the ref gives his decision and the team the decision goes against can refer it to the VR but have to state on what grounds... they can only make 2 wrong referals and that's it....lol'"
I wouln't let Wellens in charge of Saints referals! Does "flappy arms" ever believe a try is legit?
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| Quote ="Cruncher"I’m sure you’d love to hold question-and-answer sessions ad infinitum, but attempting to pick holes in this argument by focusing purely on whichever last post I happened to make will not change the overall fact that the VR is over-used to the point of self-indulgence, in which respect it is a wider reflection of our current referees (and their controller’s) egoism and pedantry. Enough said.'"
I'm not sure why you're getting your knickers in a twist mate, this forum doesn't exist for your views alone. I disagree with you. Get over it.
P.s. opinion ≠fact
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| Quote ="hare&hounds"so everybody who works in the same work place all do exactly the same because the boss told me. never in a million yrs do we all work the same do the same even if our boss told us too because were human and we al;l do things slightly different'"
Performance comes from the top in any industry. A good boss will get the very best out of his/her staff, so don't be surprised that Cummings is first in line for criticism.
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| Why do referees feel the need to go to the screen for almost every try when the match is televised? It doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that they are able to competently referee a non-televised game.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... icial.html
a rather timely article - wonder if similar statistics are available for RL referees?
The RFL publishes statistics on individual players performance on their website, perhaps they should do the same for referees.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... icial.html
a rather timely article - wonder if similar statistics are available for RL referees?
The RFL publishes statistics on individual players performance on their website, perhaps they should do the same for referees.
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| Quote ="Katrina"Why do referees feel the need to go to the screen for almost every try when the match is televised? It doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that they are able to competently referee a non-televised game.'"
I do wonder whether we would say anything remotely similar if this didn't involve the dreaded T word: Technology! If we introduce more on-field officials people tend to see it as welcome help for the referee and often complain if they don't do enough to help him, but sit them in front of some technology which allows them to offer more assistance to the ref than any touch judge could muster and we use it as a stick to beat "incompetent" refs.
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| Quote ="pie.warrior"Yes, 5 play the balls earlier on the halfway line there was a bit of obstruction by the player who played the ball. he stepped 6 inches forward to prevent the marker making a tackle....pmsl..... Let's have a system more like in cricket.. the ref gives his decision and the team the decision goes against can refer it to the VR but have to state on what grounds... they can only make 2 wrong referals and that's it....lol'"
No no no! I think there should always be a clear and robust boundary between those officiating the game and those playing it. Allowing players to call the VR would blur this boundary, imo, and would be a move away from the relationship between players and referee that Rugby League has always been able to be proud of; to wit, one of respect and deference.
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