I agree with you whole heartedly, apart from posters in the past have had their opinions totally disected & ripped apart by other posters and been almost ridiculed as having ridiculous opinions whilst almost stating their opinions as "Fact" whilst not liking having their own opinions critiqued.
Maybe some people are having a go back (Not me BTW as me & XXXXO seem to have an uneasy silent truce these days now that Mickey's gone & Roberts is doing well) but as the old saying goes "If your going to dish it out, you's better learn to take it"



PS

Just putting this on now to say I hadn't seen the other thread (Haven't seen a coach make such a difference I think it's called) with all the back biting so apologies if I've "Jumped on the Bandwagon as believe it or not I wasn't!

Like it or not what he does is answers every part of a post. Usually the people who object are the people who generally pick one part of a post they see as ridiculous and ignore the rest or the context. I mentioned on here before recently that in typing something you don't get the benefit of giving off signals with your eyes, body language or tone of voice. I think Dave is victim of this at times. People don't like having their arguments countered bit by bit (or 'ripped apart' if you prefer) but the way to deal with it is not by making personal attacks, which imo Dave never does, but to respond to him bit by bit with reasons why you disagree. I have had disagreements with Dave in the past and never felt like he is talking down to me or 'ridiculing' me, because a forum is a place where disagreements will happen and personality clashes will happen. Pretty much every subject Dave has posted on recently has resulted in a snide comment rather than a response and for the sake of the forums something needs to be done about it.

Please see my edit that I must of done while you were responding.

Fair point bud

Agree with everything you say and i've made these points to numerous opposition fans over the years.

It makes me smile when I get people saying Wild, Purdham or Langley(a super second rower but never a 13) should be at 13 for England or GB before him.

Thanks for that Dave. Nowhere in my post did I resort to the personal abuse you've been getting (which is indefensible), so I'm not sure how you class a call for you to withdraw what you said about Lockers as being "as OTT" as some of the personal attacks you have been the victim of.

I did criticise your arguments because they are wrong and are unfair to a player who deserves better. The logic in your argument suggests that Lockers will play worse in those games in which he is captain than when he isn't captain. There is no evidence for that, nor is there any evidence that he is playing to a higher standard now than last season - until he got injured last season he was playing superbly with far less support from players around him who were unfit and/or not as committed to the cause as Lockers.

What is unfortunate is that at a time when Lockers should simply be congratulated - for playing superbly, for taking his demotion so well, for continuing to be an example to other players of what Wigan as a club should stand for - people including you still go out of their way to find fault with him. Frankly I'm sick of it. I can't imagine fans of other clubs with a local lad playing the way that Lockers is and has been playing in recent seasons, with his commitment to the cause would ever attack their player in the way that Wigan fans have done to Lockers. The fact that it is still continuing, even when the guy is in absolutely outstanding form and playing a key role in us leading the table is just unbelievable. Fans of other clubs reading some of the stuff posted on this board about Lockers over the years must have been rubbing their hands with glee.

I've always been a big fan of SOL, even when he was copping abuse on here from some.

Cracking player. Hits hard in defence, runs good lines, can break the line and has a good passing game.

With Sinfield performing admirably from 9 for England, I think SOL will be a shoe in at 13 (Burgess can play anywhere in the pack without it impacting his game in any noticeable way IMO).

Burgess to play in the second row for me alongside Ellis(thats is some second row).

If we had a four nations game tomorrow i'd go-

Graham Sinfield Peacock
Ellis Burgess
O'Loughlin

thats one hell of a pack with morley on the bench its looking very strong

Peacock and Morley's impending retirement is worrying though.

I wasn't meaning your response was OTT but the other responses immediately after mine which did launch into the now tiresome ridicule. Any comments about abuse were aimed not at you and neither did I think your call for me to withdraw my comment was abusive. I took it as a point of debate and have just reiterated my reason for thinking why the captaincy thing may be a reason for his improved play.

I just want to be clear on that because at the moment it seems posts are easily getting misinterpreted.



Well from what I have seen I think there is evidence he is playing better on attack and I think the stats back that up. As to him playing worse if he gets given the captaincy back I don't think that necessarily follows even it it was, as I contend, a bad idea to give it too him in the first place.



As gpartin posted I don't think anyone should misconstrue speculation as to why his game has improved as any slight on Lockers. As was also pointed out Roberts has gone on record as to saying why he feels his game has improved so if that were reiterated on here would that be a slight on him? The same goes for any player and we have several who have improved some more than others. Why is commenting on Lockers improvement and speculating why any different?

OK you don't think Lockers game has improved but given [u[iI do[/i[/u what is wrong with suggesting why I think this may be? And equally why should me doing so result in some of the pathetic responses from others?

Dave

It is.

I actually thought looking at Morley at the end of the Four Nations final that he'd made his mind up to call it a day. He seemed to be getting an awful lot of pats on the back and hugs from his teamates but I maybe was just reading too much into it.

We could do with them carrying on for another year or even 2 so guys like Graham and Burgess can continue to develop and become the pack leaders. The one thing we never seem to struggle to do is produce quality forwards so hopefully guys like Mossop, Harrison, L Burgess, LMS and plenty of others can really kick their careers on.

I'd have Crabtree on the bench over Morley. LMs won't get a look in this year with Quins being so bad.

I'd imagine the same as in the last four nation there will be room for both Crabtree and Morley on the bench.

I'd also like to see forwards like Ben Harrison and Joel Tomkins considered for the mid season test and hopefully places in the four nations tour squad.

I think we're looking a bit light prop-wise but I think we're looking very very strong in the 2nd row. In a couple of years i'd expect some of these guys to move up to prop ala Peacock when I think we'll be alright again.

I still think Fielden could do a job at prop for a couple more years as well for England.

I am a Hull KR fan..

I have always been a fan of Sean O'Loughlin, what a cracking player he is. His tackle rate is very impressive, also good in attack and very creative!

He is one of the best players in the competiton so far!
Keep it up Lockers! (England's Number 13!)

If Fielden keeps his current form up he must be worth a look in the mid season to test to try and bolster our prop options.

I agree about backrowers eventually moving upto prop and one big candidate for that is Jamie Langley who is having a superb season for Bradford(until I put him in my fantasty team and get takes ill on the bus). He is basically doing the work of a prop and will play there eventually imo. We have Mossop who'll go the same way but maybe not on a permenent basis for a couple of years.

I'd also like to see us take a look at Andy Lynch and Gareth Carvell in the mid season game. It's pointless us keep putting a full team out against France.

I think the strength of the backrow means we could get by with just good props, without the world class ones for a bit. A back row made from Ellis - Burgess - Lockers - Tomkins - Harrison - Langley etc provides enough bulk and skill to compensate for a lack of true world class up front.

Graham is a world class prop imo and he'll step up into that prop leaders role when Peacock and Morley retire.

It will be a slog when those 2 retire but we've thankfully got plenty of top draw talent in the pack. Those 2 are very good players and have an amazing aura about them which has been built up over time because they've earned everyones respect. I'd say guys like Gareth Ellis and Sam Burgess are well on their way to building up that same aura though due to them ripping it up in the NRL(well Ellis is and Burgess will do).

Ellis would be my next England captain when Peacock retires.

If we're talking top British props, you have to mention Paul Wood.

If he stays fit this season (big if) I have zero doubt he'll be involved come 4N time.

Not sure why people would think Peacock, his England performances of late have been poor to average with the odd eye catching run. He lacks the mobility to handle International rugby league and personally the sooner he retires from that arena the better!

He is a massive weakness in defence against pace he is a total passenger. Smith and Briscoe were hung out to dry because of his poor defence in the last 4 Nations.

Thanks for the clarification regarding your "OTT" comment.

The point that in your original post that I objected to was this:



I wouldn't argue with the new coach point - its improved things for everyone. I don't feel Sean is playing much better than last season, simply because he was playing superbly last season until his injury. If he is a bit more creative this year its because his team mates are fitter and putting in more work and performing more effectively, allowing Lockers more freedom and opportunities. I don't doubt though that MM, SW and the new regime have and will improve him, but I would suspect that the results will be less visible with Lockers - who has always given 100% - than with certain other players, who frankly weren't doing themselves or the famous cherry and white shirt justice.

The part I objected to was the assertion that removing the captaincy would enable him to play better. I don't think that's fair to Lockers and as I pointed out it means we should expect him to play less well when he is captain this season than when he is not captain. I await the evidence for this - I would be very surprised if it turns out to be the case. It is not a compliment to Lockers to suggest he can't play as effectively when captain. I don't think it is right to be making criticisms like this without any evidence. I do think it tends to undermine Lockers and is a slight on him. Just put yourself in his shoes for a moment - would you like to read or hear Wigan fans suggesting that you won't play as well if you are captain? I wouldn't. Let's wait till later in the season before passing judgment, at the very least he deserves that, doesn't he?

The other point I would make is that your intentions may be honourable and you may intend no slight on Lockers but there are still many mindless Lockers knockers lurking out there (you know who you are!), please don't give them any encouragement!

As for the pathetic responses, I'm in total agreement with you there. Some of the responses you've had on this and other threads recently have been ridiculous.

They were hung out to dry in defence when he was playing at second row. He doesn't have the mobility to play in the second row anymore but he's still a class act at prop.

Good shout.

He's having a fine season. He's just become easy forgettable because he's missed so many games through injury in his career and that starts to have an effect on your overall reputation.

Have to disagree, domestically he does have a lot still to offer against the best he simply is out of his depth.