I think this just further underlines the uselessness of stats.

Whatever the percentages say, the Cas fixture was a signal game because it demonstrated beyond doubt what more and more of us have been starting to suspect, namely that we are not much of a team.

Whether that's down to the players or coaching staff, or both - I suspect the latter - it's quite evident that we are fine, when fully fit, to trundle on among the also-rans, and occasionally (very occasionally!) hand out a hammering to the lesser lights, but at the end of the table where we have ambitions to be, we are very, very second rate.

Cas did us effortlessly without even being motivated, when Wigan literally had everything to play for.

It was beyond pathetic, and in many ways - despite the occasional good stuff we've shown since the returns from injury - it's the only game of 2017 that matters thus far, because it's the one that has finally clarified things.

I hope Cas win tonight and that we beat Wakey. But I won't be upset if either or both of those matches go against us. What can't happen, won't - so whatever goes on this weekend, Wigan will NOT win the Grand Final, and would most likely be humiliated again, this time on a much bigger stage. I suspect it would be better for all concerned if the season ended now and we got on with the very pressing matter of doing what we can to reconstruct our excuse for a team.

I wasn't going to renew this year but a bit like yourself I thought TL back, ST to play more and to be honest I was just wishing that we could get better.

I just get frustrated that some issues have been poking us in the eye for several years e.g. kicking and the lack of a front row but the club seems oblivious to such small issues.

I still want them to win. I could never see me wanting them to lose irrespective of the style however, the insular attitude and sheer snarling boring nature of play is just draining my love and enthusiasm for the club. Rightly or wrongly I think that only thing that will force some sort of change is hitting the club in the pocket which where I am in terms of a season ticket purchase. Sad but there you go.

You are supporters of the biggest club in Super League. Stop whining and buy a ticket.

You sir are IL and I claim my £5

How do you know people haven't bought tickets?

What has Marshall ever done to you? It's his first season as a regular 1st team player and he's scored 23 tries in 24 games. I think that counts are more than couple of good attacking games. I thought his confidence took a knock when Wane did his usual, over thought it and dropped him but whatever, to write him off so quickly is a bit rash to say the least.

I don't think adding an attacking coach will make one jot of difference. The whole playing philosophy of the team stems from Wane. How they train, how they play, who plays - everything. The idea Wane will change all this - and it ALL does need changing would effectively require him to take a back seat and let his new attacking coach run the show. Not going to happen.

He has done absolutely nothing to me and i want the lad to do well. It's just my opinion. History is littered with wingers with brilliant try scoring records who ended up in the lower leagues. There is a lot more to being a winger than being fast and brilliant from 5 yards. His defence, positional play and confidence under the high ball are way off. Im sure he could improve on positional play and high balls but i dont see him bulking up anywhere near enough to be a solid defender. I hope he proves me wrong but i dont think he will.

Hence he won the Albert Goldthorpe Rookie of the Year? He's had an incredible first season and with the right coaching could go on to much more.

It's a fantastic achievement for him and he is to be congratulated but i only comment on things i see with my own eyes not what i am told by the Sky Sports contingent. It's an opinion, that's all, One i hope i am wrong about but i really, really don't think i will be. The rookie of the year is a medal decided on by who the Sky Sports team are buttering up at the time. Max Jowitt got it last season, never heard from him since, Andre Savelio the season before, He has done nowt either. For me, he isn't the best rookie at Wigan let alone the league.

My vote for young player went to Tom Davies who for me is miles ahead of all the players nominated for the Albert Goldthorpe. My point is that to write him off already I'd far too premature. I'd be interested to know what u thought after he scored 4 v Wire at their place on his full debut?

Tom Davies has had a great year. Marshall has real pace and if harnessed properly is a potential game winner.
I think Davies has been our best player in 2017

Best post I have read on here in a long time.

Absolutely spot on.

The same as everyone else naturally. But we have seen a lot more of him since. I am not knocking him i am merley stating a fact. I thought Ainscough was the business when he first came on the scene too. I think i have done it to death now but i have made it clear what i personally think he needs to do and that on stats Davies has made less errors and made a huge amount of metres more etc. If the league are saying Marshall is better than it shows that they just look at the one statistic. Try's

Davies > Marshall definitely, based on this season at least.

The Albert Goldthorpe Award and its Rookie equivalent are awarded by League Express and are nothing to do with the RFL or Sky. The main one is decided by totalling up points awarded over the season by the reporters that cover each match for them. The 3 best performing players in a match (in the reporter's opinion) are given 3, 2 and 1 point. The man with the most points over the season gets the award. I assume the rookie award gets awarded on a similar basis with the highest scoring rookie getting the award. Thus a player who has a few standout games can scoop a good points tally and the award while a player who is more consistent but stands out as the best on the pitch less often doesn't rack up points and so doesn't.

This is a cracking post and pretty much echoes the way I felt last year and this.

I admire what Wane has done at the club but deep down wonder how well we could actually have done by investing in a bit more quality rather than the policy of project signings and back to the future signings. I'm not sure where the blame lies for this but at the least Wane, Radlinski and Lenegan must share it for the erosion of quality performances and personnel.

I also find myself turned off by our tactics as well. The petulant, niggly, bully boy tactics aren't how I want to see my side play. We run a fine line week in week out with the third man tackles which appear to be increasing in their frequency.

The number of people I see on their phones during games is also an indicator of the standard on the field.

Yep great post.

I dont think any Wigan fans will be unhappy over the level of success in recent years. Since Michael Maguire came on the scene in 2010 we've won 7 trophies in 8 years and made it to a further 3 finals. I think we would have taken that after leaving Knowsley Road in 2009 having been beaten in yet another semi-final.

There are two very simple problems however- the squad is not reaching a level close to their potential and we play a brand of rugby that has little to no entertainment value.

Just to give you some perspective from over t'hill (intended to be constructive).

I think the views of your fans, perhaps with the exception of Cas this year, pretty much mirror fans of the game as a whole. The sport has been sterilised to the point where it's no longer attractive. For the first time in 30 odd years I missed Saints home games this year for the same reasons cited on here.

Gone is the needle and the biff. How many teams these days have real hard men, enforcers, who would scare the life out of the opposition and enrage rival fans with their antics? Similarly, where are the 'great' home-based players like Edwards, Gregory, Hanley and their generation?

I actually can't think of any. The game has little genuine skill.

So before crying out for change with Wane within just be careful what you wish for. Despite the rivalry, I think he is one of the best coaches you could possibly have at Wigan. I respect anyone in the sport with his level of honesty even if I don't always agree with what he says.

Changing the guard doesn't always bring what you would like and, in fact, can destabilise much of the 'good' that goes on and that you can take for granted. Maybe you just need a fresh look at the way you do your transfer business/play the game and attract new fans - a change to the way you play would do that in no small measure.

You'll be there or thereabouts again next year. What's needed is change at wholesale SL level; no one Club in isolation will turn the game on its head. I wish there was a constructive way for fans to lobby for that - I hear it everywhere I go.

I've been struggling to put it into words how i've felt about the club over the last few seasons but you've absolutely nailed it. I love Wigan and i always will, but watching them has become a chore more than a privilege. Well said, mate.

Great post, no need to add anything.

We haven't always seen eye to eye on here as I'm sure you remember, but you are absolutely spot on here. Well said. Last year I called us out as champions from a long way out, simply because the rest of the league was crap. But being the best of a bad bunch isn't the Wigan way and we can't even claim that this year. Something's got to give...

An excellent post. And touches on many points which for those of us in the RL world outside the Wigan bubble captured also what many actually feel about the club but find it hard to put into words.

Wigan were and are a great RL club who were respected in equal amounts. The difference is that now I just don't think the respect is there, certainly not to the same degree. And that's sad because it took generations to build.
Because their is an insular feel about Wigan this will probably be rejected instantly by most Pies.
But honestly that is the way most see Wigan RLFC now. One or 2 players really typify this feeling and the theatricals that grates so much on all other supporters. It is certainly not to the benefit of your fine club or RL in general.
RL need a Wigan who play free flowing RL, without tantrums, petulance, never ending gamesmanship etc. This is what Rl wants. I'm sure it's what the Wigan fan base want.
A club with your heritage should be setting the highest standards of play. Not a standard that is boring and driving your own supporters away.
Wigan should be a flag bearer for what is best in rugby league. At the moment it is not, and its more serious than just a blip in player quality that you have had to deal with before. It's about what you actually stand for as a club and the way the game is played. Or should be played.