I understand your point mate; just don't agree with it. You say the 'go forward that George Burgess will bring with hopefully offset the weaknesses of the likes of Flower'-this is exactly my point; all props should have the basic attributes to their game; one is go forward, you say it's unrealistic and something we've never had; I also disagree. Plays do have strengths and weaknesses but to say some will be missing a key attribute means they're not good enough and don't have the skillset needed to be a well-rounded prop who we should have at our club. It's this drop in standards which sees us with an ineffective pack.

"Flower and Partington can hopefully feed off George Burgess and Vice Versa"-What do you mean by this? it's a very vague remark...do you expect to see Partington and Flower to suddenly churn out the meters cos Burgess might be?

The penny has finally dropped.
Also Fages? he's been great for Saints this season. Difference between Fages and French; Fages has been playing under a good coach.

I guess time will tell on the extent on his health and fitness. Never like seeing a player forced due to retire to injury; but realistically it's part of the game.

Flower can make ground to a reasonable degree is my point, it’s not earth shattering and when he’s being expected to be your main prop it’s not enough but with somebody like Burgess alongside him, then hopefully George smashes the metres out, Flower does his usual solid effort and suddenly you’re better off then we would be with Flower and Clubb side by side. I totally get what you’re saying in that the basic minimum of any prop should be to make ground through the middle but players are going to do that to varying degrees. Flower and Clubb can do it when they’re on form but they’ll never do a Walmsley and Thompson and smash out 150m on a regular basis. If Burgess can do that then I do think the others can feed off that. If a defence is scrambling to stop big bodies like Burgess and Bullock rolling forward then it should give Flower, Clubb, Partington and co more room to work in, it should also give Sam Powell more space and make his job easier.

You can’t tell me average Joes like Amor and LMS haven’t filled their boots this year on the back of the damage that Walmsley and Thompson have done. That’s a prime example of what I mean when I say they can hopefully feed of George Burgess. On the flip side the likes of Flower and Partington are 100% effort and aggression in defence and Burgess will hopefully find his job easier defensively because of that.

Top and bottom of it is that I’m much happier with our prop options going in to 2020 then I was going in to 2019.

The improvements Holbrook has dragged from some of those players has been staggering really. It will be interesting to see if they can keep those levels up next year.

We probably do and probably will is the short answer to that, but if it doesn’t work which is my fear, then we need a viable back up plan.

As for Fages he was already a good player before Holbrook IMO. Holbrook just took him and players like Zeb Taia and Dominic Peyroux to another level.

That's the whole point, you say "players are going to do that to varying degrees" this is the point; our props can't do it to the standard which we should demand; this is factual as shown with what happens during the game and the stats from the game; it's not really up for dispute when it's literally what happened in the game with the stats to support it-they aren't good enough at the attributes required in the prop; one clear attribute is meters made.

It seems like you're saying Burgess' potential stats make up for Flowers lack of meters? "hopefully George smashes the metres out, Flower does his usual solid effort and suddenly you’re better off" This doesn't change Flowers performances or potential stats does it? How much better off would we be if all of our props did as required; made meters.

Your next point is also questionable: "You can’t tell me average Joes like Amor and LMS haven’t filled their boots this year on the back of the damage that Walmsley and Thompson have done" Hard to quantify 'damage done' but what isn't hard to quantify is meters made; a recognised stat. IF Amor and LMS (who has actually played more at 13) meters are good then they deserve credit for that; I wouldn't possibly say; "oh well you're only making meters cos the other two lads have done the damage"

Top and bottom of it is... our props weren't good enough. Performances and stats support that statement.

Agree with this. From how they were performing before Holbrook to now. Which is what worries me at Wigan, I don't see us winning or improving at all under Lam.

Quite correct,from moment one under Holbrook the change was if not startling it caught the eye that’s for sure,I’m sorry but this simply hasn’t been the case with Lam.

It has been clear to me but in reverse. How much is down to the loss of Tomkins and Bateman or because of Lam im not sure. Perhaps a bit of both?

But in reverse? Sorry I don’t follow. What’s the reverse?

Did Lam not have a good enough squad to do better than he did and have us playing good rugby?

Hardaker-international and former MOS
Gildart-international starting centre
Sarginson-NRL experience, GF winner and former international
Williams-MOS contender current international. WCC winner
Tommy-former NZ international: WCC winner, GF winner etc
Flower, Powell, Clubb-all former internationals world a ton of experience from WCC to GF wins
Faz and Greenwood; internationals; bags of experience in big games, Greenwood has NRL experience Faz named in the dream team.
Lockers-current England captain.

Out of them...
Burgess
Gildart
Sarg
Williams
Tommy
Flower
Powell
Flower
Greenwood
Faz
Lockers

All played in a team which went undefeated in the playoffs and won the GF the previous year.

This idea that Lam was giving a poor hand needs to stop.

What standard do we expect though? Flower is a good player for my money and I’m more than happy to have him as one of our 4 in a match day 17. Would I like 4 Thompson’s? Of course I would but nobody has that, even the NRL big boys. I’d go in to the start of 2020 with Burgess, Flower, Bullock and Clark as my 4 props. I’d be happy with that, far happier then what I was with what we finished 2019 with. I think we both agree that our props were horrendous in the play offs just gone and something needs to change. I’m happy with the recruitment in that area and think we will be much improved.

I also don’t see what is earth shattering about saying Walmsley and Thompson made the jobs of the other forwards (in fact all of Saints team easier) easier and helped them shine. Look at the play off game against them. Those two kill us at the start and then guys like Amor and LMS have it easy against a tiring defence. I don’t need stats to prove that’s the case, it’s just what happened and it’s what happens in any good team. Do I believe George Burgess can help Flower (for example) play better? Absolutely.

" Those two kill us at the start and then guys like Amor and LMS have it easy against a tiring defence. I don’t need stats to prove that’s the case, it’s just what happened and it’s what happens in any good team"-my point was how you're almost dismissing the hard work of other players IF the likes of Amor and LMS have strong stats, if someone makes the yards (which is a recognisable stat) they should be rewarded for it.

I'm also of the believe that props shouldn't be dependent on other props 'making it easy or easier' for them; it's baffling to me as each prop should be pulling their own weight and contributing accordingly for their position, none this 'balance' where one makes the yards etc, the 'balance' comes from the team as a whole. I do understand your point; I just disagree.

Every single prop should have the basic attributes as I stated in a previous post. None of this 'well some make the hard yards to make others shine' nonsense. Each prop must stand on their own two feet and be counted; in all elements of a their game, if not, they need to go-that's what having standards is.

Surely you don't accept a prop not pulling his weight etc and remaining in the team...

Next season; am I happy with our props? Time will tell; but in honestly not overly. Burgess over recent seasons has become an unknown quantity with some great games and some which have beeb frankly poor; anyone who watches the NRL will say the same. Clark again is an unknown. He was a bench player only at Leigh; many not massively convinced about him; at that level he should be smashing them to pieces if we're being honest.
Bullock has potential; area of his game are strong but fitness and cover D and finding his position in the defensive line are lacking. Hopefully things he can work on. Flower and Clubb both look like spent forces and Partington seems to hit the line at a snails pace and then hit the floor making little impact.

I’ve said previously there’s heaps of pressure on George Burgess. We need him to be our Walmsley or Thompson if we want to close the gap to Saints because if he comes in and he’s no improvement on Clubb and co then we’re snookered. I’m also not entirely convinced but can hope he can find his best again with the excitement of a new challenge. If he can I think he can have a knock on effect on the firm of others. I don’t see Flower as being finished, he just wasn’t match fit at the back end of the year after a couple (more) injuries. I like Bullock but he’s loads to work on and Clark has shown at Cas that he can be very good on his day.

It’s not perfect but it’s much better then 2019. Somebody on the rumours thread mentioned us wanting one more prop if we could offload a couple of bodies, so you never know things may improve further.

Has Hamlin's case been formally closed yet ?
Apologies if I've missed an announcement but he's still showing as a squad member on the club's website.

We look to be going down the classic brush it under the carpet and hope it goes away route with that one.

I’d actually forgotten all about Hamlin. He would have been such a boost last season for us and going in to 2020 too. Terrible waste of a career but time is on his side fortunately enough. I just hope the club don’t do as feared and brush it under the carpet and hope, like I did, people forget.

It's seems like it's taken an eternity. Surely the club can put this one to bed and move on. Perhaps it's a little more complex than we know; maybe Hamlin has a case against Wigan or something we don't know about...

I can’t remember if WADA usually take this long or not to be honest. Too many maybes and not enough facts for my liking which could do with being addressed well before the 2020 season start

I was just wondering if there was more to it... speculated that perhaps Hamlin has he own legal case or representation prolonging the case. Just seems to be taking an eternity.

Don't think it matters really as he was OOC at the end of the season.

FWIW he'd have definitely improved our side next season, but it's not to be.

Didn't realise hie contract was up. no worries then, he's not impeding any transfer/cap movements.

Well at least that's what I got told on here, so take it with a pinch of salt.

I think it was up and the talk was he was homesick anyway. He certainly looks to be enjoying himself when you see his social media accounts. It’s a shame we didn’t see more of him because I think he had great potential.

If we could offload Hamlins wage, Clubb, Navarette, Escare etc we could try and sign some quality in Christian Welch or Jordan McLean from the NRL, they are free agents as of now.