Exactly.

Medical records will no doubt exist that show Hohaia's brain function before and and after the Grand Final - I am sure he had plenty of scans post-October. Unless you are a qualified neuro-surgeon and have seen the brain scan results, then this is a pointless discussion about whether the 2 punches from Flower caused any long term issues.

Anyway, there is no mention in any of the statements about Hohaia taking any further legal action against Flower. If he does choose to go down this route, then the qualified doctors will look at the medical reports and the lawyers will ensure it follows due legal process.

I'm not a medical expert, all I know is that Saints have been aware that he has had these symptoms but they had appeared to have gone. That obviously isn't the case now.

As for Lomax, he won't play again this season but will be back next year.

I think its quite important to note that Lance hasn't actually mentioned Flower yet (as he didn't all through the offseason following the incident).
We all presume there is an implication, but that's only because its quite an obvious link.

It may well be a case of cumulative effects (plenty of people have been KO's without this happening - myself included), but if there was ever a case for "the straw that broke a camel's back", then this would be it.

this is a thread that will keep on giving for a long while.......

I can sense another St Helens myth in the making.

But at least this one will be vaguely more viable than Gareth Hock deliberately throwing the ball at a little girl 20 rows up on the terrace.

There's a lot of legal issues that will need to be discussed (If Lance decides to go down the civil route) mainly exploring whether Flower's actions were the operating and substantial cause of his recurring concussion.

I honestly think it will be difficult to prove, seeing as Hohaia will have had blows to the head before and after the incident.

I'm gutted that he's had to end his career so abruptly and I hope gets all the help he needs back home. I'm sure he'll have a coaching role somewhere by the end of the season.

Lance Hohaia doesn't have post concussion syndrome. If he did he wouldn't be able to train let alone play on a regular basis. Concussion is the new buzz word in sport and this has been used to allow Saints to get Lance off their books and bring in someone else. Saints have obviously been in talks with McDonnell for some time, seeing as he was announce the day after Lance retired. I'd be shocked if he isn't playing in 2016.

Good post.

Shocking.

As for McDonnell, yes we have been in talks for some time, ever since Lomax got injured.

There are different issues you have conflated a little. A lot of the issue brought up in the NFL is CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), which is caused by lots and lots of small head knocks rather than a single hit. This is more like punch drunk boxers have.

Hohaia has retired because, according to him, he is suffering from PCS (post-concussion syndrome) which is far more likely to have actually been caused by a single incident of concussion.

Just as an aside, Saints receive no benefit to Hohaia retiring from injury compared to him just retiring, so unless we are possibly accusing them and Hohaia of insurance fraud, im not sure why this would be said if not true.

edit: just to add, there isn't really enough info in the public domain at the moment for us to know whether or not it was the flower incident so no need to jump to conclusions. However the statements put out and reaction does seem to be pointing towards some form of legal action by Hohaia, whether this is regarding his insurance payout of action against Saints, the RFL, Wigan, or Flower I have no idea, but saints reaction especially does point towards something happening next.

First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats

First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats'" Saints obviously weren't aware of the severity of the situation until recently when they stopped playing him immediately. What's difficult about that? Stop trying to apportion blame where it isn't required.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats'" Saints obviously weren't aware of the severity of the situation until recently when they stopped playing him immediately. What's difficult about that? Stop trying to apportion blame where it isn't required.

Yet another example of you reading what you want to read. So I'll be (very) literal just for you.

No they are not. But I can read and what Lance is quoted as saying is '[i[usince returning to playing[/u[/i'.

What that means is is wasn't there before - or did you conveniently omit that in the inevitable blind defence of the convicted thug?

So you/I don't actually have to be medically qualified to look at the chronology and whilst I'd accept that people can and will draw their own conclusions his statement is actually pretty clear [u[iIF[/i[/u you care to read it before making silly statements.

However, what I will agree on is that I wish any player, from whatever Club, the very best when they are forced to retire. RL is a tough enough game without having it forced upon you.

You totally missed the point of my post.

You cannot attribute the medical problems a 32 year old long serving RL player to one particular incident unless you have the medical evidence to back it up. I am sure he's been punched more than once in that career.

one time, I fell over. I got up and was fine,
another time I fell and had a severe pain and swelling in my foot.

I was later diagnosed with a broken bone in my foot.

Which time that I fell over should we attribute the broken bone to?

Similarly to how we don't know enough to assume it was the Flower incident, we don't know anything to say it wasn't.

We shouldn't assume these things are always an accumulation, nor should we assume they can't be attributed quite easily to a specific incident. What Flower did was so unacceptable and so beyond the bounds of acceptability because of the possible consequences. This may be one of them.

So he was ok before.

He wasn't ok after. Then retired.

You wanna rethink that a bit?

Flower's retaliation may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. But in all logic it cannot be the only cause of whatever's now transpired. Unless someone's got CT scans of before & after that definitively prove otherwise.

As for the "thug" moniker, I'm pretty sure I'd respond in like fashion if someone ran at full pelt into the back of me leading with an elbow.

Swivel-eyed pie-haters indeed.

He is now seeking expert medical advice. Shouldn't that have been done sooner?

I hope it is the saints medical staff who get the praise for putting the players welfare first and foremost and making Lance realise that with the repeated problems he is stating then it was clearly a decision that needed to be taken out of his hands or at the very least all the evidence being put before lance for him to make a tough but informed decision about his own career and ultimately is own health.

Concussion in both codes of Rugby is a massively hot topic and i would hope this has set some standard to ensure clubs follow suit and dont leave themselves open to litigation.

The idiots at BBC have put 2 and 2 together and got 5 and tried to put something together where they can continue to drag the GF incident up and justify there own inept reporting of Rugby League in general.

The Bods at the RFL need to grow a pair of balls and issue some sort of retort to the reporting and get there facts right instead of letting the clowns at the BBC constantly tread all over the sport

Of course you would. Except your swivel eyedness is ignoring the frame by frame depiction of Lance being hit first. But it's ok, I expected no less.

Slightly irrelevant in anyway as whoever started it the assault of an unconscious man was beneath any form of contempt and can't be condoned by whoever you support. Right?

Agree entirely. If this has been going on in the background then the Saints medical staff do deserve some praise. However it still does raise the question if the decision should have been made sooner, but I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing.

How do you know he hasn't? Would he have retired without taking it?

There appears to be an awful lot (you might even say "the usual"icon_wink.gif knee-jerking going on here. It's my understanding that post concussive syndrome is not a career ending problem. It's a temporary condition that, in most cases, clears up within a few weeks. On very rare occasions it can extend beyond this into a few months. On very, very rare occasions (read: almost never) it may last for a year or so. What it isn't, however, is permanent. If Lance has chosen this time to retire then, I would suggest, it's probably most likely a case of the timing being most suited to his circumstance. I wish him well.

I meant pre-season. In his statement he has said "I am =#FF0000currently seeking expert medical advice to understand any potential effects to my long-term health."

Going to have to pick you up on this post..

Firstly you aren't being literal at all. You, like most people, are being opinionated. There's a big difference.

Convicted thug? What has he been convicted of? Do you mean the ban he received for the incident in question? If so, you do realise that Lance received a ban for his part in the same incident don't you? Therefore, by your terminology, anything you post is also in defence of a "convicted thug". Of course, both instances are nonsense.

As a matter of fact you DO need to be medically qualified to look at the chronology in this instance. I can tell you from personal experience that this is the case. I'll give you chapter and verse if you like but, if you agree to stop posting ill thought out, self-righteous nonsense, I promise not to bore you with the details.

On the third point I think we all agree.