Should we have a salary cap based on Overseas players. Limit it so that British players are not counted on the cap, we could keep more players in the game this way.

Maybe a bit of selective memory there pal.

If you're talking ashes series we lost 2-1 in 97 and 2-1 in 2001 too. We lost 3-0 in 2003 but by 4, 3 and 6 points. Plus the win in Sydney. Not sure if anyone can remember any others?

2-1 was a pretty familiar result in 80s/90s everyone talks about, and there were worst whitewashes than the one in 2003 (worst Aussie team ever yadda yadda).

1 in 14 is harsh, even including the one off test farce and the recent world cup.



I agree, my argument is that we have improved since 1996 and I would take Shenton and Fox over Wellens and Naylor anyday, which I think was our centre/wing pairing in the 2000 World Cup semi final.

There is no doubt that we are less competetive with the Aussies than we were in the early 90s, but that's a different argument to standards slipping in SL, which I don't think they are.



Absolutely agree, but was it healthy to rely so heavily on RU players at international level? The marked drop since they all went back to RU suggests not. I would rather we concentrated on developing our own stars than nicking Unions.



No doubt, although I would suggest that the changes being made are steps in the right direction, but it will be 5/10 years before we see the full benefits.

Unfortunately, the rate of improvement in Australia seems to continue to outstrip our own.

Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. '" So you can't remember 1996? How then do you know if SL has impoved or not since it's inception? Quote They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.'" Not attacking the squad - just being truthful. Quote However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia. I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment. In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website: www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151 www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913'" They are hardly going to say "player x was shiiite, missed 10 tackles a game and repeatedly got penalised for foul play" etc, are they? Quote You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.'" Actually, Hunte was the back-up centre. With Arnold on the wing. Quote Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998. '" Remind me, which division did Leigh play in from 1999 onwards? Quote Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'" Since your memory is conveniently fading (yet somehow you know that SL has declined since 1996???) , I suggest you go back and actually watch some matches from the 1996 season, so you can see Paul "talented young player" Anderson, Vila "top quality player" Matautia and Saints numerous other squad superstars in action.

Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. '" So you can't remember 1996? How then do you know if SL has impoved or not since it's inception? Quote They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.'" Not attacking the squad - just being truthful. Quote However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia. I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment. In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website: www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151 www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913'" They are hardly going to say "player x was shiiite, missed 10 tackles a game and repeatedly got penalised for foul play" etc, are they? Quote You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.'" Actually, Hunte was the back-up centre. With Arnold on the wing. Quote Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998. '" Remind me, which division did Leigh play in from 1999 onwards? Quote Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'" Since your memory is conveniently fading (yet somehow you know that SL has declined since 1996???) , I suggest you go back and actually watch some matches from the 1996 season, so you can see Paul "talented young player" Anderson, Vila "top quality player" Matautia and Saints numerous other squad superstars in action.

I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan!

Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.







Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.



Tthey could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard.

If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably:

"Dear Sirs

I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help.

I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great.

This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!).

Yours etc

A Concerned Sintelliner

PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."



Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.



Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.



Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.

For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.

Quote ="Deano G"I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan! Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.'" So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Quote Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.'" Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ Quote They could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard. '" I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Quote If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably: "Dear Sirs I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help. I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great. This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!). Yours etc A Concerned Sintelliner'" What a ludicrious suggestion! Quote PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."'" Bitter much? Quote Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.'" Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. Quote Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.'" "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. Quote Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.'" I would if I could remember where they were held! Quote For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.'" No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.

Quote ="Deano G"I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan! Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.'" So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Quote Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.'" Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ Quote They could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard. '" I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Quote If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably: "Dear Sirs I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help. I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great. This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!). Yours etc A Concerned Sintelliner'" What a ludicrious suggestion! Quote PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."'" Bitter much? Quote Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.'" Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. Quote Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.'" "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. Quote Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.'" I would if I could remember where they were held! Quote For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.'" No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.

Yes.

I get the feeling that the pretty unprofessional Goulding would struggle to impose himself on games in a consistent way similar to the way Briers does now.

You need a far more professional attitude to succeed in SL nowadays.



Yet Senior has done far better at International level in, in your opinion, a far weaker team.

So either the teams aren't that far apart, allowing a much weaker Senior to shine more, or Senior is far better than Connolly as he's done better in a far weaker side.

Which is it? I can't see a much weaker player playing in a far weaker side being more of a success than a far stronger player in a far stronger side.

Funny how Saints with a relatively average squad managed to beat The Mighty Wigoon to the league title in 1996. Let's not forget how The Mighty Wigoon, shortly after being all-conquering, lost to part-timers Salford in the cup as well. Just how great was that team? Not very when you look at how they were beaten to the title by a squad that signalled the decline of RL standards over here.

This forum is even more biased than any Saints or Leeds one.

Sorry about that, I meant the 2006 test at the SFS.
Bloody Hell I was there!
Again apologies!

Feel free not to frequent it.

Now that you have both re-appeared can Father Ted respond on the points on page 16 and Brett Keny to the points on page 17.

It seems whenever you are asked to back up your make-believe points you disappear only to return a few days later repeating the same old rubbish.

For you Brett

For you Father Ted

Since you don't listen to reason, frankly I am bored posting points.
This post is going off at so many tangents it's untrue.

Step back, ignore the trash being posted.

If you think the standards of RL has improved in this country over the last 15 years then I honestly despair.

The way to improve standards in ANY field, be it a certain profession, a certain vocation or indeed a sport is NOT to limit the earning power of it's participants. The CC does the opposite.

Again if you cannot see that simple point then there is no point in continuing the debate.


Oh and btw, re-read the posts. I didn't mention "300 players"

Certainly worked in banking.

Tell you what, why don't you limit the salaries of ALL banking staff to £50k and see what state the banking sector is left in.

The country would go bust, unable to pay out benefits to chavs.



Stupid analogy FTV.

It's your assertion that unlimited, unfettered earnings is the way forward in every walk of life. If you think bonus culture and greed chasing these unlimited earnings wasn't a factor in the banking crisis then, well . . . .

I would argue the contrary - that a defined and transparent pay scale is better and leads to better more long termist decisions.

But then everyone knows comparing sport directly to business is stupid, don't they?

The issue with the banks was the lack of proper regulation, nothing to do with wage levels.



Comparing sports to business is not stupid. However, the analogy that you used previously was.


Explain how a "defined and transparent" pay scale is better. Actually while you are at it, explain exactly what it is.


Btw the grammar in your "long termmist" line is awful. How on earth are we supposed to take your views on the relative similarities between RL and the banking sector seriously with a reply like that?

Quote ="Badwanger"So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 What a ludicrious suggestion! Bitter much? Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. I would if I could remember where they were held! No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.'" First off, I'm not sure why you kept posting the same link (to Sonny Nickle???) Though now you mention it the early 90s side he played in was pretty handy, certainly in the 92/93 season. (Come to think of it, that Saints side was a better side than the 2006 side and the 2009 side. Thanks for reminding me.) Yes I didn't think Matautia was a great player. So? You/FTV have said he was rubbish/NL1 standard. Clearly thats not the case. As for Anderson, he appears to have been a competent squad player. All teams have them, even Wigan in the early 90s. Saints have them now. Yet you argue that he and others, forming what would appear to be the majority of Saints double winning squad, were only NL1 standard. Bizarre.

Quote ="Badwanger"So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 What a ludicrious suggestion! Bitter much? Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. I would if I could remember where they were held! No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.'" First off, I'm not sure why you kept posting the same link (to Sonny Nickle???) Though now you mention it the early 90s side he played in was pretty handy, certainly in the 92/93 season. (Come to think of it, that Saints side was a better side than the 2006 side and the 2009 side. Thanks for reminding me.) Yes I didn't think Matautia was a great player. So? You/FTV have said he was rubbish/NL1 standard. Clearly thats not the case. As for Anderson, he appears to have been a competent squad player. All teams have them, even Wigan in the early 90s. Saints have them now. Yet you argue that he and others, forming what would appear to be the majority of Saints double winning squad, were only NL1 standard. Bizarre.

I can't believe anyone would come up with such nonsense and post it as a serious point. Wigan lost in the cup to Salford so that proves they were not a great team? Can you name me a RL team that does not get beaten every now and again by a team of a much lower standard? Even great teams have off days and more lowly teams raise their games. That is what makes team sport what it is. Unpredictable.

Dave

It wasn't even worth replying to. I can't believe you did.

You're right.

Looking back, there was little point in my replying to posts such as those in which Saints fans described the bulk of their '96 double winning squad as "rubbish" or "NL1 standard".

The Saints' fans posts on the last few pages on this thread speak for themselves.

There really is no need to respond to what are patently absurd posts and I won't be doing so in future.

He was most definitely rubbish. In fact, he was a total liability. I doubt any Wigan fans who actually remember him would disagree.



You're saying he was a valuable squad member in 1996, I'm saying he only played 2 games and was at Leigh a couple of years later never to be seen again. One is opinion (from a person who admits to not even remembering watching him play

) and one is fact.

A lot of that squad wouldn't get within a sniff of a top 6 team in this years SL, let alone the champions. A lot would be in the Championship (as many of them were a couple of years later).

More nonsense. Matautia wasn't rubbish. He may have had disciplinary issues and could have done with some better coaching to sort this out but rubbish he wasn't. I didn't rate him that highly but to say he was NL1 standard is ridiculous.

I find it frankly bizarre that you can say that - in 1996, the season in which he was voted young player of the year (not my opinion, the opinion of lots of Saints fans!) - Anderson was "rubbish" or "NL1 standard". He may have gone on to Leigh later on but Saints obviously thought he could do a job for them as a squad player for a couple of seasons.

With any squad, some players will not be as good as the bulk of the first team, that's the nature of a squad. Even Wigan in the early 90s had squad players who weren't especially talented.

Saints have a number of players in their squad now who will leave over the next few years for NL1 or maybe leave pro rugby entirely. It doesn't mean they are rubbish now or not up to SL standard at this moment in time.

To produce a long list of players, what appears to be the majority of your 1996 squad and say they were "rubbish" and would only be good enough for NL1 is just absurd.

I'm not going to respond to any more of your ludicrous posts and would suggest that no-one else does.

Sorry about that it must not have cut and pasted correctly. Mea culpa.



Any credibility you had has just disappeared if you honestly think that the Saints side of 1992/93 were better than the all conquering side of 2006!!!!



So why quote the "Saints sources" opinions if you did not agree with them?
You would not readily quote "Saints sources" if they said that Wellens was better than Radlinski or readily quote those same "Saints sources" which extol the virtues of Tommy Martyn (for example).



I'd say that myself, FTV (plus others) are in a far better position to judge the relative merits/flaws of particular players in that era rather than someone who, by their own admission, knows little of the Saints squad in 1996, and is instead heavily reliant on a misty-eyed biased report by a Saints fan on their heritage site.



Yes, he was competent (as was Pickavance, Morley, Matautia etc) - nothing more. Obviously the years of dross at Wigan have lowered your standards sufficiently that you now think "competent" is good enough for a regular SL place.

There is an easy way to show it hasn't.

People need to ask questions like this.

Do we currently have a player of the quality of Ellery Hanley playing 13 at any SL club? Answer, no clearly not.

You then repeat the above exercise for the top players who were his contemporaries and ask the same question. Virtually every time you will come to the conclusion the player from the Hanley era was better than what we have running around today particularly British players.

You can even do it with some players who were not considered top class at the time but merely pretty good such as Henderson Gill and Des Drummond. Do we have any wingers up to their standard running around at the moment? I don't think we do.

Do this for players like Schofield, J Davies, Andy Gregory and so on and they were all IMO better than the so called top players we have today in their positions. Now Long's talent is on the wane who is the best 7 on SL? Some have said Dobson. Comparing him to Andy Gregory is ridiculous, he doesn't come close.

Dave