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I'm not sure we can afford Smith at 7 and McIlorum at 9 unless Williams develops a lot quicker than expected to be honest. Every other top SL team has at least one playmaker who is capable of something special to make a break ball in hand. That means the defence have to pay him extra attention, which in turn creates room for the support runners. With our 6, 7 and 9 you don't need to worry about what they will do too much, only who they will pass to.
Williams is still developing, and McIlorum makes up for it with his aggressive defence. Smith is a weak defender and tends to go missing in big games, I'm not sure whether he has enough about him to justify his spot long term. Maybe Powell will eventually take over, he seems to have more to his game. If I was IL I'd at least have a look at what is on the market for next season though. We simply aren't dangerous enough in attack for me currently.
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| Quote ="Grimmy"I'm not sure we can afford Smith at 7 and McIlorum at 9 unless Williams develops a lot quicker than expected to be honest. Every other top SL team has at least one playmaker who is capable of something special to make a break ball in hand. That means the defence have to pay him extra attention, which in turn creates room for the support runners. With our 6, 7 and 9 you don't need to worry about what they will do too much, only who they will pass to.
Williams is still developing, and McIlorum makes up for it with his aggressive defence. Smith is a weak defender and tends to go missing in big games, I'm not sure whether he has enough about him to justify his spot long term. Maybe Powell will eventually take over, he seems to have more to his game. If I was IL I'd at least have a look at what is on the market for next season though. We simply aren't dangerous enough in attack for me currently.'"
And Smith is the best kicker we've had since Trent Barrett. He does his job just fine. If there are inadequacies at 6 and 9 you can't blame Smith.
I'll keep the current England scrum half, twice running Dream Team scrum half and double winning scrum half thank you. |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"And Smith is the best kicker we've had since Trent Barrett. He does his job just fine. If there are inadequacies at 6 and 9 you can't blame Smith.
I'll keep the current England scrum half, twice running Dream Team scrum half and double winning scrum half thank you.'"
Deacon? |
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| Quote ="Grimmy"I'm not sure we can afford Smith at 7 and McIlorum at 9 unless Williams develops a lot quicker than expected to be honest. Every other top SL team has at least one playmaker who is capable of something special to make a break ball in hand. That means the defence have to pay him extra attention, which in turn creates room for the support runners. With our 6, 7 and 9 you don't need to worry about what they will do too much, only who they will pass to.
Williams is still developing, and McIlorum makes up for it with his aggressive defence. Smith is a weak defender and tends to go missing in big games, I'm not sure whether he has enough about him to justify his spot long term. Maybe Powell will eventually take over, he seems to have more to his game. If I was IL I'd at least have a look at what is on the market for next season though. We simply aren't dangerous enough in attack for me currently.'"
I think in some ways you have hit the nail on the head, McIlorum for all his defensive qualities does not offer a strong attacking game in the traditional sense of the hooking role (very few breaks/assists or even tries) and Smith is an organiser type HB, although I think his defence has improved and is not weak and normally does have a good kicking game. Williams might be the player to add that something different but it is a lot to ask for young player just getting his first chance as a starting half, time will tell if he can but I think fans will need to be patient. This season will tell us a lot about who, if anyone, can step into the more attacking HB role which Green did last year. I do think it is right to at least give one of the younger players a chance to make a claim on the spot before looking at brining anyone in. |
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| Quote ="Pieman"Deacon?'"
IIRC Deacon was carrying an injury the whole time he played. It affected his overall kicking, and for example, I don't think he kicked one single conversion even when Pat was injured. Certainly a better kicker than Smith in his Bulls days though.
As an aside to this Smith has improved his own goal kicking this season. He kicked two from way out wide at Widnes that secured a point and his kick in the last minute on Saturday showed a lot of bottle. |
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Smiths kicking game isn't actually that good IMO, especially this year. From deep he barely every finds space and either the FB or wingers normally take the ball on the full. But more or just as importantly his attacking kicking game is woeful. The only option he seems to have is the kick across to the winger which he rarely gets right, it's either too deep and easy to diffuse or too short meaning even if we get the ball it's an easy tackle for the opposition. I don't know why we don't try mix it up even if it was to drop that type of kick a little short for the SR/Centre to attack ala McQueen at Souths.
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Looking at a NRL OOC list which I'm assuming is correct Chris Sandow is free at the end of the season and Kieran Foran is rumoured to be going to the Eels. I think Sandow would be a great signing for a couple of years and I would actually play him at fullback. Last year he deputised there for Hayne a few times and on occasion produced MOM performances.
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| Quote ="Grimmy"I'm not sure we can afford Smith at 7 and McIlorum at 9 unless Williams develops a lot quicker than expected to be honest. Every other top SL team has at least one playmaker who is capable of something special to make a break ball in hand. That means the defence have to pay him extra attention, which in turn creates room for the support runners. With our 6, 7 and 9 you don't need to worry about what they will do too much, only who they will pass to.
Williams is still developing, and McIlorum makes up for it with his aggressive defence. Smith is a weak defender and tends to go missing in big games, I'm not sure whether he has enough about him to justify his spot long term. Maybe Powell will eventually take over, he seems to have more to his game. If I was IL I'd at least have a look at what is on the market for next season though. We simply aren't dangerous enough in attack for me currently.'"
The fullback is a playmaker in the modern game in my opinion. If we bring in someone exciting there then I'm sure we could carry the more solid but unspectacular pair of Micky and Smith as well as a youngster at hb. I do agree that we are missing just a little bit of something at the moment - hopefully Hampshire can develop into this player be that at stand off or full back. |
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| Quote ="DP_wwrlfc"Smiths kicking game isn't actually that good IMO, especially this year. From deep he barely every finds space and either the FB or wingers normally take the ball on the full. But more or just as importantly his attacking kicking game is woeful. The only option he seems to have is the kick across to the winger which he rarely gets right, it's either too deep and easy to diffuse or too short meaning even if we get the ball it's an easy tackle for the opposition. I don't know why we don't try mix it up even if it was to drop that type of kick a little short for the SR/Centre to attack ala McQueen at Souths.'"
We must be watching a different bloke, because to me this describes Wigan's kicking with Finch and Leuluai in the team.
Smith, since he joined us, finds ground most of the time unless he's Kicking from his own 20/30 metre line due to the poor ground made by the props etc. His 40/20 rate is second only to Danny Brough (though I haven't checked the stats I think I am correct) and his short kicking was just fine when Pat Richards was in the team(someone who could actually catch). |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"And Smith is the best kicker we've had since Trent Barrett. He does his job just fine. If there are inadequacies at 6 and 9 you can't blame Smith.
I'll keep the current England scrum half, twice running Dream Team scrum half and double winning scrum half thank you.'"
I'm not sure Smith does do his job just fine though. If he is going to be an organising half back then he needs to really step to the forefront and take control of the big games. Too often on my way home from a big game or after watching it back I'll think back through each player's performance and struggle to remember any major influence from Smith, particularly in the second half as a rule.
The dream team and England selections say more about the quality of the other halves than they do about Smith, having said that I'd swap him for Walsh, Brough, Sinfield (age not withstanding), Dureau or Carney without hesitation. I'm not settled on wanting rid of him, but I would be at least having a look who is on offer if I was IL, perhaps with Smith moving to the bench hooker role if he will stay to do that. |
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| Quote ="Grimmy"The dream team and England selections say more about the quality of the other halves than they do about Smith, having said that I'd swap him for Walsh, Brough, Sinfield (age not withstanding), Dureau or Carney without hesitation. I'm not settled on wanting rid of him, but I would be at least having a look who is on offer if I was IL, perhaps with Smith moving to the bench hooker role if he will stay to do that.'"
I'd agree with all of those. We wouldn't get Walsh but Sinfield might be a bit left field, I doubt he'd come but if he did come he would certainly replace Matty. However I'd pair Brough/Dureau/Carney with Matty not replace him. It'll be interesting to see how Kelly and Campese go this weekend against us as I wouldn't have minded either of them.
I think Matty has always had his doubters from Saints onwards. I think he's a good pro, a good bloke and a good player. He has his limitations, but by and large he's been an excellent signing for us. I think there are other places in the team that we could improve before Matty needs replacing IMO. (full back, right centre, left wing, stand off, props, hooker for example!!!) |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"I'd agree with all of those. We wouldn't get right but Sinfield might be a bit left field, I doubt he'd come but if he did come he would certainly replace Matty. However I'd pair Brough/Dureau/Carney with Matty not replace him. It'll be interesting to see how Kelly and Campese go this weekend against us as I wouldn't have minded either of them.
I think Matty has always had his doubters from Saints onwards. I think he's a good pro, a good bloke and a good player. He has his limitations, but by and large he's been an excellent signing for us. I think there are other places in the team that we could improve before Matty needs replacing IMO. (full back, right centre, left wing, stand off, props, hooker for example!!!)'"
We nearly got ourselves onto the same page there until you mentioned right centre, super Gells all the way! He made nearly 200 metres against Brisbane with groin strain btw. I bet the forwards bloody love him for the amount of hard yards he takes off their hands! Prop wise Ithink we will be a lot better if we can get Flower, Clubb, Mossop and Tautai all out there at the same time, Sutton looks a bloody good prospect as well, definitely room for a solid older head if we can get hold of one though, there's an injury or two between those four so we need contingencies (preferably not involving Crosby, who I would loan out to a good Championship side like Leigh for the season) |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"
I think Matty has always had his doubters from Saints onwards. I think he's a good pro, a good bloke and a good player. He has his limitations, but by and large he's been an excellent signing for us. I think there are other places in the team that we could improve before Matty needs replacing IMO.'"
Fully agree. As for not offering enough from unstructured play, sure, he's no Shaun Johnson (who is?), but then, neither is Cooper Cronk, and everyone says he's the bee's knees. Not saying Matty is as good as CC, of course, but still...
All that said, he still needs to take the lead right now, especially playing alongside kids. And Williams did show a few good touches against the Broncos. |
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I think we need to cut Smith some slack here. He's not had a full pre season after touring with England, he's been in and out of the side with his ban, he's playing alongside a new halfback partner and on the back of a set of props that haven't been all that great so far this year.
He's not been at his best but Smith has money in the bank as far as I'm concerned. He needs to improve, there's no doubt about that but talk of moving him in to 9 or replacing him is OTT.
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Blaming Smith for the lack of a more direct half back playing along side him is a little unfair. He does what he does well, he was never signed as a dynamic line breaking half back. Green was more that kind of player, we needed to replace Green with like for like and we haven't, as yet anyway, time will tell for Williams. To blame Smith for that though is pointing the finger at the wrong person. The coach makes the decisions, not Smith.
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Playing for England last year Smith looked a reasnable organiser and good kicker. What really let him down was the lack of any running game at all. In that respect he is very similar to Deaccon. Hopefully he can develop one - Adam Reynolds used to look entirely one dimensional with the ball, with a similar focus on kicking and not much else.
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| Quote ="Grimmy"We nearly got ourselves onto the same page there until you mentioned right centre, super Gells all the way! He made nearly 200 metres against Brisbane with groin strain btw. I bet the forwards bloody love him for the amount of hard yards he takes off their hands! Prop wise Ithink we will be a lot better if we can get Flower, Clubb, Mossop and Tautai all out there at the same time, Sutton looks a bloody good prospect as well, definitely room for a solid older head if we can get hold of one though, there's an injury or two between those four so we need contingencies (preferably not involving Crosby, who I would loan out to a good Championship side like Leigh for the season)'"
Still think that about Gelling after Sunday?
My worry with him is that this is as good as it gets.
He makes plenty of metres in defence. He can't pass. He chooses daft moments to offload and he drops the ball too often in collision and also in open play. He is erratic and can't be trusted to play consistently well week in and week out... And his hair is stupid. |
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Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Still think that about Gelling after Sunday?
My worry with him is that this is as good as it gets.
He makes plenty of metres in defence. He can't pass. He chooses daft moments to offload and he drops the ball too often in collision and also in open play. He is erratic and can't be trusted to play consistently well week in and week out... And his hair is stupid.'"
I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates.
Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit?
Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep.
www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats
Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair. |
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Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Still think that about Gelling after Sunday?
My worry with him is that this is as good as it gets.
He makes plenty of metres in defence. He can't pass. He chooses daft moments to offload and he drops the ball too often in collision and also in open play. He is erratic and can't be trusted to play consistently well week in and week out... And his hair is stupid.'"
I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates.
Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit?
Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep.
www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats
Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair. | |
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Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates.
Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit?
Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep.
www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats
Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair.'"
Food for thought, especially about Gelling.
My worry is that in Josh Charnley we have a devastating finisher, the very best in Super League in 2012 and 2013. Poor Josh is trying his best I've no doubt, but doesn't look like breaking any records this season. If Goulding was alongside him I'd be more confident.
Gelling certainly does some hard work, but his error rate is high. The stats suggest that we are lacking at prop, something we all know about. Bateman, Faz and Joel are doing the work alongside Gelling with only Tony Clubb showing up well. I was glad to see Lee Mossop back, and I thought he did a great job considering his layoff. He must have been apprehensive. |
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Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates.
Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit?
Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep.
www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats
Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair.'"
Food for thought, especially about Gelling.
My worry is that in Josh Charnley we have a devastating finisher, the very best in Super League in 2012 and 2013. Poor Josh is trying his best I've no doubt, but doesn't look like breaking any records this season. If Goulding was alongside him I'd be more confident.
Gelling certainly does some hard work, but his error rate is high. The stats suggest that we are lacking at prop, something we all know about. Bateman, Faz and Joel are doing the work alongside Gelling with only Tony Clubb showing up well. I was glad to see Lee Mossop back, and I thought he did a great job considering his layoff. He must have been apprehensive. | |
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Regarding Matty, I'll always support players who have been successful with us in the past. Matty has money and credit in the bank so to speak. He's going through a rough patch at the moment, but he'll improve, I've no doubt.
As an aside to that, it's not his fault we don't have a recognised goal kicker. It might take a little pressure off him if Hampshire where to play and take over the kicking, though from what I've seen Hampshire is a bit streaky.
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The Gelling debate is an interesting one.
I'm of the opinion that he's only having to do so much work because your forwards aren't.
If your forwards were, he wouldn't be a talented enough centre to make your team.
I mean really, he can't be a long term answer for Wigan in the centres can he? He often looks like he has about as much control over his limbs as my 6 month old.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"The Gelling debate is an interesting one.
I'm of the opinion that he's only having to do so much work because your forwards aren't.
If your forwards were, he wouldn't be a talented enough centre to make your team.
I mean really, he can't be a long term answer for Wigan in the centres can he? He often looks like he has about as much control over his limbs as my 6 month old.'"
He makes bad errors but then again we have seen him do some brilliant stuff with the ball that makes him look like a world beater as well. IMO he has both the talent and the work ethic, he just needs to cut down on the unforced errors and I honestly think he would be the best centre in the league. Unfortunately that's surely been the aim for a while now and he's stilll doing it. Even with the errors he's still well worth his spot |
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For the last three months of last year Gelling looked like a world beater. In that period (not overall) he was the best centre in superleague by a mile IMO. He's big, powerful, pacey and had both good hands and a deft kicking game as well as big solid in defence. Fast forward to this year and his errors are killing him! He's still got all the physical attributes but he's struggling with his skill. Hopefully it's the colder weather and heavy pitch or it may just be a concentration thing as his place seems pretty safe.
I think we'll always have this wild inconsistency with him though. What you've got to hope is his big games and good spells come at the right times.
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Josh did do better with Goulding on his inside. Goulding has neither the pace, power or size that Gelling has so had to rely on skill, ie draw the centre and /or wing and get the pass away to Josh.
Gelling's first instinct is to go for it himself and only pass if he gets stopped, when all the momentum has gone from the move
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It doesn't seem five minutes since everyone was saying the same thing about Sarge; he never passes, or only as a last resort...
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