Except London do have fans. In 2019 they averaged a home gate of just over 2,000. Leigh’s in comparison was 3,259, now for a town that’s only got one professional team and claims to have huge support, that’s pretty poor. London meanwhile compete with high flying PL/RU sides in a huge metropolitan city and still draw 2,000. That’s pretty good in my book, even better when you consider the most RLWC tickets have been sold in London. We’ve missed a huge opportunity and instead of going for a meaningful expansion have take a safe, warm and cuddly bet in Leigh. A side who have never managed to stay in SL for more than 1 season.

They’ll give it a decent crack but so would have the other 5. If by no fans you mean away support then that’s a pretty poor argument brought up when there’s no other leg to stand on. If we’re reliant on away supporters, we’re doing something demonstrably wrong in the first place.

So Leigh in a division below averaged more than London did in the top flight?

What was Leigh's average in 2017? 6k I think roughly. London haven't a prayer of matching that.

I’m not saying they do but do you really think Leigh offers anything other than reducing our sport further to the M62? We sit and wonder why our sport doesn’t grow, alongside a long list of other reasons this is one of them - no ambition or confidence to back expansion choices.

Leigh won’t survive. We all know that, neither would London or the other 4. Chances are Leigh will be replaced by one of the 5 left behind, likely Toulouse/London which makes our debate a little pointless.

I can understand why they chose Leigh. I’m not “outraged” or even angry about it, I just think we’ve missed a big commercial opportunity to capitalise on the successful WC sales down there.

The one thing I would say is these decisions don’t go hand in hand, so they didn’t get rid of Toronto to bring in Leigh, they got rid of Toronto due to financial issues and then had to bring a team in. They then weigh up the pros and cons of them all and choose what’s a safety first option but probably the right call in the short term. I see a team in Leigh who can have a crack at staying up, they’ve got a decent squad, an owner who will back them to bring in more players, a good facility and they will get pretty good crowds. In these current times I think playing it a bit safer first is understandable. Leigh will be a solid middle order batsman to fill a gap for a year until the world is back on its feet.

I’m like you by the way, I want the league to expand and grow. I was really disappointed to see the end of Toronto and my first thought was ‘get Toulouse in’ but it’s too risky this year and they’re strong enough to come again. I get what you’re saying with London but the timeframe kills them. They’ve lost pretty much everyone from their last superleague season and their current squad would need too much work. It would be too risky to put them in IMO because 50-60 point hidings each week isn’t going to grow the game in London.

A understandable safety first option is my take but the game really needs to encourage the likes of Toulouse, London and York to keep growing.

What a silly post. Can you elaborate on your expansion thoughts? Especially after the embarrassment TW have just brought us.
For me,if Leigh wasn't chosen, i would be wishing the other club well whoever it was.

You’ve said it was silly without saying why. That makes you silly by virtue of not explaining yourself properly.

My expansion thoughts are quite simple; the longer we restrict ourselves to the M62 the more our game dies. I was sad for Toronto, I was annoyed when they weren’t re admitted but I can understand why. I always said with Toronto/NY/Ottawa that the medium - long term aim must have been to start a professional North American League. It wasn’t feasible in SL medium term.

I can understand not choosing Toulouse given the pandemic and travel restrictions which are likely to stay for another 12-18months at least. I’m glad Bradford and Fev weren’t chosen, they offer nothing whatsoever.

Leigh however offer what? Another derby for Wigan? A squad of ex SL players who will likely sign for the next club which comes up when Leigh go down? Commercially what do Leigh offer? Fan base is a given, I can’t begin to argue that point.

London offered much more than people give them credit for. Would they have gone back down? I reckon so, much like Leigh will too. But it’s an opportunity missed.

Once you take your personal connection to Leigh out of it (I’ve taken mine out) you can see the bigger picture. I might have touched a nerve with you, I offer no apologies for that. All I can say is that it isn’t personal.

Edit; I do actually wish Leigh well. Though I fully expect them to be relegated again come seasons end.

I do agree with you, despite my posts criticising the decision. I’m by no means against Leigh in SL, my point is that opportunities have been missed and I also believe that come June/July Leigh will be on the end of some good hidings as well - all 6 would have been because they come up hamstrung with finances and little time to build a competitive SL squad.

Good luck to them. Especially to the Thornley brothers and John Duffy, I hope they enjoy their time in SL.

=#FF0000It makes you silly harping on about expansion when it has just failed us big time.

=#0000BFPlease elaborate how/why?

=#00FF00It was a unanimous decision from the panel. You obviously disagree - your opinion of course. Go check out the criteria for this decision, and what Leigh submitted pal.

You haven't touched a nerve at all, It was the right decision,and i'm confident we will justify it.

It failed us because we had no confidence whatsoever to back ourselves. Just like War of The Roses, just like the Exiles, just like licensing. The only thing we’ve backed when it seemed it was failing was Magic Weekend and look how that’s turned out, one of the most looked forward to weekends in the calendar (if not the most looked forward to).

I’m not naive enough to believe every club will survive. Celtic, PSG were real half hearted attempts. But you only have to look to Catalans to see the true potential of expansion if it’s given a chance.

I’m not at all against Leigh in SL. Genuinely I’m not. But when you have Toronto’s fate decided by the clubs, and the 12th SL by an independent panel, there’s something wrong. Just my opinion.

I always favoured Toulouse but there are the unknowns of Brexit and Covid.
Should TO top the Championship in 2021 then maybe those problems will have been resolved.
Leigh is the RFL/SL choice so fair enough.
Let's just welcome Leigh and their supporters to the DW

With the world as it is and after yet another failed attempt at expansion, now is the time for a solid option and Leigh are pretty much that.

They are almost on a hiding to nothing but their relegation won't set them back too much.

London will get their chance again and if it is with franchising will get a few years go at it.

The club won’t be too annoyed to see Leigh back in. They’ll bring 3,000+ to Wigan (if allowed) and that’s a good few bob in to the coffers. It may be short sighted to think this but they’ll be good news in the short term for other clubs, especially Wigan, Saints, Wire etc.

Why?

Agreed,and the most important thing is to have a great game of rugby league.

Given the lack of time Leigh will struggle to put a competitive squad together. On the other hand we have an opportunity to offload some fringe players or to set up a couple of loans.

There is a simple answer for Rugby League expansion. Extend the league to 14 teams and get rid of the stupid loop fixtures. Teams like Leigh, London and Tolouse can then compete. If promotion and relegation is confined to 1 team then at least 2 of those sides will stay in super league for 2 seasons and one of them for 3 seasons at least. Sides like York and Fev then have the opportunity for promotion and the game grows. It's easy really. Just need to expand the league. I don't really see a downside unless I am missing something. I could be.

The downsides would be:

- The existing SL sides would get 1/14 of the TV money instead of 1/12
- The talent pool would be spread thinner, potentially lowering the overall quality
- More uncompetitive games (i.e you're giving up a third Wigan v Saints fixture for a new Wigan v York or whoever)
- Less gate money for the existing SL sides (same theory as above)
- You significantly weaken the Championship as they lose their three best sides
- Less gate money for the remaining Championship sides as presumably the sides getting promoted were drawing higher crowds than whoever comes up from League 1
- There is also the question of what you do with the play offs. If you expand then to 7 or 8 teams then a lot of the regular season will be meaningless for the top sides once they know they are in the play offs. If you have 5 or 6 teams then the season will be meaningless for many of the bottom sides once they know they are safe from relegation.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it eventually, but those would be the drawbacks.

Yes, but apart from that; what have the Romans ever done for us?

like what? Leigh offer away support thats all that we can expect these days as its been proven that these big city clubs dont bring in the investors thats been bounded around for year

Bearing in mind we are still in the middle of this pandemic then bringing Leigh in was probably the safest and smartest choice (and I'm saying that as an expansionist).

I would like to hope that a number of ambitious Championship clubs look of ways to grow and seek additional investment to give them the greatest chance of progressing into SL over the next 3-5 years. I'm talking about Toulouse, London, Newcastle and York to spread away from the M62 as well as Widnes and Bradford strengthening the traditional heartlands.

A SL team made up of TO, London, Newcastle & York all competing would give us a much better chance of a new TV deal once the next one expires. Surely as a business that's the aim? To be in a stronger competition than the one it was five years earlier?

I think your argument hinges on things weakening rather than strengthening. I see where you are going but i think those arguments are a little 'glass half empty' The talent pool being spread thinner means clubs would have to start using their academy players more as opposed to bringing in overseas players. Thats a plus for me. The championship weakens, yes it does but it also allows clubs like Barrow, Newcastle, London Skolars, West Wales Raiders and Coventry the opportunity to get there and start building for the future. Newcastle are already making great strides in that area.

Play offs - yeah it's a tricky one. I'm not too keen on a play off system full stop if i am honest but it adds excitement and drama at the end of the season and is a money spinner. I wouldn't want to extend them but it works in the NRL having a half way split, although they have a much more competitive league but then again i am so dead against rewarding a team finishing in 8th a good 20 points behind the leaders. It's up to the clubs in the middle of the pack to improve and challenge. The salary cap was brought in for this but hasn't stopped the same teams being dominant, all it did was make Wigan weaker in comparison. These sides have a lot to answer for in terms of promoting players from their youth ranks. Some sides have completely neglected them. Warrington make me really angry in that regard. Every year they just go for big signings and ignore what they already have. I saw some very promising lads during the course of the season for Wire but i have seen them before when they have had injuries and they never get a look in again. Apart from ourselves i think Hull look well equipped on that front, I think Cator is going to be a star and i like quite a lot of the lads at Huddersfield who have been brought through in the last few years.

Somehow the clubs have to try and encourage the young lads through the system and develop them otherwise with the salary cap in place it will always be the same sides at the top. If the clubs don't want to expand themselves then the sponsors will continue to stay away and the tv money will never improve. The RFL and SL have to start putting things in place sooner rather than later. The clubs are there for expansion, the clubs are there to make it more of a nationwide sport but there has to be some encouragement from the authorities to help them grow. Rouges has some ideas on things like this, i have seen him speak sparingly about it in the past. I would be very interested on your views Brian, you have a wealth of experience and know the game and academies inside out.

Also just to add. I know there is an element of hypocrisy in my post as we sign young players from other sides not even in our region, Smithies, Pearce-Paul etc but that is the network we have in place. It's not just a case of nabbing all the best youngsters it's hard work and due diligence on the clubs part to sniff these lads out. Rugby League is played all over the country. London Broncos have found a good number of local lads and have made strides as a club as a result. They made it back in Super League and were very unlucky to go down. Every side that comes up is always going to have the cards stacked against them but that experience of playing at that higher level is all good for the future of the club. They won a lot of friends the season before last because they were a well coached and well drilled unit. Pretty much all the lower league clubs need to have a look at London's business model and follow their lead.

Oh for sure it's pessimistic. I think there are benefits to going to 14 teams eventually but we can't just pretend there aren't hurdles. History tells us that the promoted teams tend to bring in experienced journeymen at the expense of youngsters because they need to stay up. Already I, and others, are saying we should be touting Clark and Hankinson to Leigh, for example. Players who weren't good enough for SL last year, but may be starters next year even with one team coming up. What standard of player ends up on the pitch when you add in a further two teams and one of them picks up a few injuries?

More youngsters would inevitably get opportunities at some point as well (e.g Clark goes to Leigh so Kilner gets the odd game here). That's OK at Wigan because we have the best academy. Are the clubs further down the pecking order ready to cope with that demand, or do we end up with players on the pitch who should really be playing at a lower level, or more NRL has-beens over for one last payday? That's the biggest hitch IMO. Same number of players available, 60 or so more required to play Super League regularly.


Not sure how familiar you are with League 1 so apologies if this sounds patronising. The quality is bloody awful, worse than amateur level in many cases (hence NCL sides regularly beating League 1 sides in the CC). The sides with a shout of coming up aren't the exciting expansion teams. It would likely be two of Barrow/Keighley/Rochdale. They aren't building for the future, they are in a permanent state of trying to keep their heads above water. In fact I've long argued that they should just merge the NCL and League 1. West Wales wouldn't even be in the top two divisions if they did that.

Forget that bit though, what about the remaining Championship teams? They were all reliant on some loan/Dual Reg players every week to fulfil fixtures. The players they would have loaned will now be playing SL for whoever. What quality of player can they loan now? The problem trickles down.


Agree with all this. The reserves league needs to be in place for three years before we can consider 14 teams IMO. That way you may have enough players ready to step up.

Oh yeah league 1 is way off. The season before Coventry became a League 1 club a few years ago the played St. Judes and got stuffed but there a teams there to be able to expand upon in different areas of the country. It's a funny one, Rugby Union gets all this hype and media coverage on the strength of it's international game and hardly anybody watches the club sides on tv whereas Rugby League's biggest strength is it's club game and less emphasis on the international side. There has to be a medium there somewhere. Rugby Union in terms of clubs is pretty much a closed shop but they have sides dotted about all over the place and the game is also strong in Scotland and Ireland. I honestly believe all the pieces are there for Rugby League to grow but it needs the people at the top, the decision makers to put all those pieces together but they have systematically failed in that regard for the last 20 years or so. Most of the fans of all the clubs can see what needs to happen but the people at the top would rather pretend no problems exist.

If the league to be expanded to 14 nominate the 2 clubs to be come into SL 12 months beforehand so the said clubs could accrue personnel to at least compete in SL and give them financial help to do so.