We need another back rower. Ideally a right-sided SR. People need to get real and demand more of what each player offers. A weak pack doesn’t win anything. It’s a disgrace how people are even mentioning him as a starter. They need to wake up and demand more of a wigan player.

Hardaker
Manfredi
Bibby/Hank
Gildart
Marshall
Hastings
French
Burgess
Powell
Bryne
Farrell
Greenwood (learn to play of the right)
SOL

Smithies
Harvard
Bullock
Clark

Let’s go for big props! Harvard Byrne Burgess Bullock, all 6 foot 4!

Agree with those who are 6'4".
Don't know about Havard and Byrne but Burgess and Bullock I've seen somewhere they're both 6'5" and Clark is 6'3". Those five would be ideal for the 17. Two starting with 3 on the bench. If Greenwood was 2nd row and he's 6'5" then we are going towards a big pack. Faz and Smithies or Lockers to complete what I'd regard as our best starting pack.
After those there'd be Flower and Partington with Clubb as back up.
Isa would be 2nd row back up.
Powell to do the 80.

Clarke wont get anywhere near the starting 17.

He was only a bench player for Leigh and couldn't get in to the cas strongest 17

I haven’t seen enough of Clarke to comment but I think the above speaks volumes. That being said sometimes a player just needs to find the right club and coach to shine, Salford are a testament to that.

He’ll need to be given a chance by Lammy obviously but more so us too, me included. With Flower, Clubb and Navarette surely coming towards the end of their Wigan careers; there’s gaps to fill and opportunities to take them. That’s a big prize to dangle above anyone’s head and that should motivate the props. If not, there’s plenty where they came from ready to take your place.

You're selecting players on size?

Luke Thompson 6'1
Paul Gallen 5'11
Shane Webcke 6'0
Matt Scott 6'1

I hope you see the point.

He was frozen out at Cas because he was leaving and I guess Leigh like his other clubs felt he was suited to a bench spot. He’ll have a fair chance here of making the 17 depending on what he puts in to pre season. He is a strong runner of a ball and like Bullock, it will depend on how much they can improve the other aspects of their game as to how much they play.

I look at our prop options and we need more balance than we had in the play offs. We didn’t have one prop who gave you confidence they would make the ground the team needed. We had Flower who was not match fit, Clubb who’d got in to his mode of just concentrating on trying to hurt people, Partington who can defend and drag people in to a battle but doesn’t make ground and Byrne who struggled with the step up in intensity when the play offs came (which is totally understandable). We’re absolutely desperate for George Burgess to be that metre eating forward we need and if he can be that then the balance is better straight away. We can use Bullock from the bench who’ll ensure we keep getting forward when George goes off and guys like Flower and Partington can work at setting a tempo for the side defensively, with aggressive line speed. If George Burgess doesn’t work out then we’ll struggle.

Balance? Each one of the qualities mentioned should be part of every props game; they should just inhabit one or the other. 'Dragging people into the battle' and 'Hurting people' aren't qualities of a prop; I've never seen a stat for either to be honest.

This is becoming a problem, fans or the club happy with substandard performances and qualities in a player. Truth is; not one of our props were anything close to good enough; proof is in their stats and the overall results when we faced Saints and Salford in the crunch games.

Props; run hard with aggression, make the hard yards, know when it's safe to offload and when it's not. If part of the game plan, make yards after contact and find their front as quickly as possible. In defence; they must tackle hard but fair with line speed in the middle of the pitch and always endeavour to be the first in the tackle, work their socks off as they play limited minutes to other positions.
On a basic level that's about it. If they get that right they'll put us on the front foot; wear down the opposition and be fan favourites. Sometimes it's back to basics and keeping things simple in approach.

If a prop isn't inhabiting said characteristics then a) they're not up to scratch, b) must improve in the areas in order to fulfil their duties as a prop.

Ryan Bailey?

Can you imagine.. MOS awards leaderboard is topped by Bailey due to 'hurting people'

To be fair I can't remember Bailey ever hurting anyone (dog shot on Maurie Fasavalu aside).

Perhaps it is time to start to think about Partington changing his role. He could look at the prop style 13 or even second row if he has the speed. I could see him playing with Smithies outside him as both have been used primarily to bash the ball up the middle and neither has shown the ability to do that so moving them to where there might be a little less traffic could be an option.

I don’t know why people are falling over themselves trying to fit Partington into the team, he isn’t good enough. He hardly takes a drive and when he does he falls into the floor, he shows a lot of aggression but I think it’s animated faux aggression IMO. He should go out on loan to a lower SL club or Champ team.

You might be right but at the moment he is in favour at the club. He is still learning his trade and in other circumstances he would have been on loan last season.

To be honest I still want a 13 who can play. Not just another unit to ‘lump it up’.
Over the years with the likes of Faz and Lockers we’ve been blessed with a 13 who can play. At times the 13 jumper has provided the spark we needed when the chips were down; I wouldn’t be happy with just an out and out prop as our long term 13.

But who? I honestly don’t know.

In terms of forwards I’d seriously be talking to Sam Burgess. Many reckon his days in the NRL are numbered; with a few injuries etc. With his brother already being part of our team he might want a crack at SL before calling it a day. He’d still be a massive force and presence in SL.

Additionally I hope we’re still in communication with Ryan Sutton. He’s benefiting greatly from NRL competition; yet long term might not be good enough to gain a long term contract, would love him and Sammy B in cherry and white as we lose the likes of Clubb, Naverette, Flower and Lockers in years to come.

It looks like Sam Burgess may be set to retire completely because of injury. That would be a massive shame but reports suggest that his shoulder is a real mess.

I didn’t say Clubb hurt people mode or Partington ability to drag teams in to a scrap was a positive, it was a comment about their limits as players in that play off series.

When I say balance, I mean that the presumed go forward that George Burgess will bring will hopefully offset the weaknesses of the likes of Flower, who isn’t a prop who’ll roll you forward time and again but he does bring other qualities. To have four or five props who are the complete package in both attack and defence is unrealistic and something we’ve never had. Players have strengths and weaknesses and if we have two props who can churn out big metres then we have a foundation. The point was that in the play offs we didn’t have that. We had four props who couldn’t make any ground (for varying reasons-Clubb being a tool, Flower not being match fit and so on) and we got battered because of it. We should be in a much better position starting off 2020 and players like Flower and Partington can hopefully feed off George Burgess and Vice Versa.

As much as I’d like to see Sam Burgess in a Wigan shirt, his days aren’t just numbered in the NRL but also as a player in RL due to a debilitating shoulder injury if the Aussie press is to be believed. Would be a huge gamble and one too far (should the rumours about his shoulder be true).

I have come to the conclusion that we must try French at 6 for at least a few games at the start of the year. It might work, it might not but what have we to lose? If it works we have a lot to gain with his acceleration and agility he could be lethal. He also has a bit of a trick short kicking game on him which could be improved with practice from what ive seen. If a crapper like Fages can play half back and win a GF then surely French who has more natural talent can do it.

I understand your point mate; just don't agree with it. You say the 'go forward that George Burgess will bring with hopefully offset the weaknesses of the likes of Flower'-this is exactly my point; all props should have the basic attributes to their game; one is go forward, you say it's unrealistic and something we've never had; I also disagree. Plays do have strengths and weaknesses but to say some will be missing a key attribute means they're not good enough and don't have the skillset needed to be a well-rounded prop who we should have at our club. It's this drop in standards which sees us with an ineffective pack.

"Flower and Partington can hopefully feed off George Burgess and Vice Versa"-What do you mean by this? it's a very vague remark...do you expect to see Partington and Flower to suddenly churn out the meters cos Burgess might be?

The penny has finally dropped.
Also Fages? he's been great for Saints this season. Difference between Fages and French; Fages has been playing under a good coach.

I guess time will tell on the extent on his health and fitness. Never like seeing a player forced due to retire to injury; but realistically it's part of the game.

Flower can make ground to a reasonable degree is my point, it’s not earth shattering and when he’s being expected to be your main prop it’s not enough but with somebody like Burgess alongside him, then hopefully George smashes the metres out, Flower does his usual solid effort and suddenly you’re better off then we would be with Flower and Clubb side by side. I totally get what you’re saying in that the basic minimum of any prop should be to make ground through the middle but players are going to do that to varying degrees. Flower and Clubb can do it when they’re on form but they’ll never do a Walmsley and Thompson and smash out 150m on a regular basis. If Burgess can do that then I do think the others can feed off that. If a defence is scrambling to stop big bodies like Burgess and Bullock rolling forward then it should give Flower, Clubb, Partington and co more room to work in, it should also give Sam Powell more space and make his job easier.

You can’t tell me average Joes like Amor and LMS haven’t filled their boots this year on the back of the damage that Walmsley and Thompson have done. That’s a prime example of what I mean when I say they can hopefully feed of George Burgess. On the flip side the likes of Flower and Partington are 100% effort and aggression in defence and Burgess will hopefully find his job easier defensively because of that.

Top and bottom of it is that I’m much happier with our prop options going in to 2020 then I was going in to 2019.

The improvements Holbrook has dragged from some of those players has been staggering really. It will be interesting to see if they can keep those levels up next year.

We probably do and probably will is the short answer to that, but if it doesn’t work which is my fear, then we need a viable back up plan.

As for Fages he was already a good player before Holbrook IMO. Holbrook just took him and players like Zeb Taia and Dominic Peyroux to another level.