The cracks were starting to appear before he got injured. His last couple of games showed his true form IMO. Not good enough.

But that is my point, where are you going to get rid of them too?

If they are playing as poorly as is being made out, no other club is going to come in and pay a fee for them, and pay the wages they will be earning at Wigan. And unless they are out of contract, no player in this day and age (it can be a short career, so I don't blame them) is going to agree to taking a cut in their salary based on a poor to average performance the season before. And if they are in contract, it will cost you money to break that contract and pay them off - so the only way to do it is if everyone is one a 1 year contract, but players or clubs will never accept that because they want security.

You can't just do that though. If a player's contract is going to be "cut short" then there will be a pay off. Any payment made on termination of the contract will count towards the salary cap. The only way around this is if a player agrees to leave for nothing. Never going to happen.

If a player has say 12 months left on his contract he is going to want the bulk of that paying to him. Irrespective of the fact that he may get a contract elsewhere. There may be a deal to be done but the player could simply dig his heels in. He will hold all the aces as he knows that the club need to get rid so that they can bring someone else in.

Yes I understand what you are saying. But my point is this - you sit the player down you tell him he isn't in the first 17. He has a choice whether to collect his wages and not play or to move on to play but on lower wages.

I'm certain that there would be a queue of clubs willing to take a punt on Sam Tomkins, believing that that they could get the best out of him. Of course we know that our eyes are not deceiving us, he really is finished, but I'll bet that Warrington would take him and pay him well too.

Any club would take McIlorum (apart from Leeds and Hull who don't need him). Sutton would get a gig somewhere, probably Salford. FPN can go back home where his reputation would probably get him a better contract actually. I doubt anyone would want Leuluai to be honest so we might keep him as reserve hooker.

Do you want the blindingly obvious issues fixed or do you want to be nice to Wane?

He knows as any coach does past glories don't guarantee your job when the wheels come off. Ask Smith, Hasler and Madge.

So first of all you say, all these players are done and need replacing and then you say . You can't honestly believe that other clubs can't see what you can, that a lot of these players are just not worth it any more!! I certainly wouldn't want McIlorum at my club, other than being a niggly little **** I can't see that he brings too much to the hooking role.

It's not about being nice to Wane. He has enough credit in the bank to have earned another season. But it is with the proviso that we have not just to win something, but improve our regular season performances.

I'm not sure how much the recruitment is down to Wane or is it Radlinski /Lenegan? But it has been poor with too many former players brought back. IMO the squad needs overhauling. Do you agree or are you just being nice to former greats of the club?

The season has been woeful but I would argue that Wane has to take a share of the blame, not the whole of the blame.

If Maguire was available then I'd have him back. But don't run away with any ideas that the quality of rugby would improve because it wouldn't.

We must look at the team as a whole first of all and then look at individual players.
Firstly, Wigan are the most boring team to watch in the league.
Secondly, our players are always getting injured.
Thirdly, they seem to lack class.

I think the above three are linked and all point to the coach as being responsible.
He has to go.
I think some players would improve with better coaching and by being surrounded by better players.
I would keep Escare, Sam Tomkins, Manfredi, Gildart, Burgess, Davies, Williams, Farrell, Bateman, Sutton...and one more season from O'Loughlin.

Mate, there are always coaches who think they can get a tune out of an old banjo. You might not want McIlorum, and I respect that, but I'm pretty sure that he'd get a gig somewhere in Super League.

I don't dispute any of that. Our discipline is poor, which I think is your point about lacking class. I'd certainly agree with that. It bothers me that the rest of the league see us as dirty and niggly, and I think it is probably true. And you are right that is down to the coach. That needs to change.

I'm about 60/40 in his favour for one more year, but there needs to be new signings, because some of those highly paid players have not delivered, nor are they likely to next season.

I doubt any of the top 4 teams would want him, and if they do it will only be as a back up, so would only end up playing as much rugby as he would if he stays at Wigan, but would be on a massively reduced contract - so not gonna happen. Or he goes to another middle eights team, again on a lower salary (because they aren't gonna pay top whack) but with less chance of winning a trophy, so again no-brainer and not gonna happen.

As I said earlier, it can be a short career these days, and players have to think about number 1 - so will always do what is best for them while they can. Not many players stay in the game once playing career is over, and only a very few can make it into media if coaching isn't their thing, so staying on at a club and earning £150k a year but only playing 10 games is going to be far more beneficial to them than moving elsewhere to play 20+ games and only be on £75k

You are right he wouldn't get in a top 4 team. But we'll have to agree to disagree because I believe another club would take him, even as back up. If he wants to run his contract down then there isn't much we can do about it, but most players would rather play.

I reckon if Leigh stay up they might fancy him to replace Higham, Hull KR might fancy him to support Lunt, I'd swap him for Hinchliffe for example with the Giants getting a fee, so I think there are lots of options.

I think we need to be sensible about this.

I agree that a whole bunch of players need to find new homes - my list would be: Burgess, Gelling, Leuluai, Clubb, FPN, Tautai, McIlorum and Joel (with Sam and George given stern warnings about their performance-to-pay ratio) - but the days are gone when we can just put them all on the transfer list.

The only real thing we can do is let their contracts expire naturally. No doubt their agents will start looking elsewhere before then (especially if they know they aren't getting new deals), and so some might depart early. It could mean that we end up with a bunch of even less-interested players than we have now, but to be honest, I'd defy any of them to be this ineffective again, even if they were trying to be.

The one thing we can move to fix quickly is the coaching problem.

SW may have some credit in the bank, as a former poster said, but does that count for anything after what's just happened? It wouldn't be so bad if 2017 had been a one-off, possibly caused by the injury crisis. But though we've won trophies in recent years, we've all seen a steady decline in form and style over the last few seasons. Too often, it seems, we've performed badly for month after month and just managed to scrape it together near the end. That was never really good enough for Wigan before, but now that chicken has come home to roost fully - we didn't pull it together late, and the club finished a humiliating 6th in the table.

The last time that happened was when Nobby was in charge. If it wasn't good enough then, it shouldn't be good enough now.

Lets be realistic here not much will change.

We will go into next year with the same squad, I cant see us signing anyone unless someone leaves, most likely FPN according to rumours but that's not a given, maybe Navarrete and Tierney will leave, but as someone has pointed out they will have to be paid off as only Lockers is off contact this year. The only thing I can see happening is us getting a new/additional assistant, weather that will be enough, probably not who knows.

As an outsider it looks to me as if Wane's influence is waning! Maybe time to freshen things up. It's his judgement on players that has got you the squad you have now. It's also his style that the side is playing. Has he really enough in the bank for you to see that style and that recruitment policy continue for another year or longer? I can't see a big improvement without a few signings of quality but as has been said you're restricted with cap and contracts already in place.

Would Wane really sign for one more year anyway? If he is at the end of his deal he'll want 2 years at least and backing to spend some money. Would IL want to sign up to that given the losses made recently? Or would he be better going for someone new like Hasler who could freshen things up and maybe attract some new talent?

If I was IL I'd say thanks Shaun but time for a change.

Taken from the linked article below. 'Anyone who saw the recent World Club Challenge documentary will see the passion that he carries into his role and will understand why we have extended his contract for a =#FF0000minimum of three years and rolling thereafter. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... l-day.html I'm almost certain that the rolling contract was based on winning trophies, so the WCC win would give him at least a one year extension.

Taken from the linked article below. 'Anyone who saw the recent World Club Challenge documentary will see the passion that he carries into his role and will understand why we have extended his contract for a =#FF0000minimum of three years and rolling thereafter. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... l-day.html I'm almost certain that the rolling contract was based on winning trophies, so the WCC win would give him at least a one year extension.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Taken from the linked article below. 'Anyone who saw the recent World Club Challenge documentary will see the passion that he carries into his role and will understand why we have extended his contract for a =#FF0000minimum of three years and rolling thereafter. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... l-day.html I'm almost certain that the rolling contract was based on winning trophies, so the WCC win would give him at least a one year extension.'" I've not seen anything that states that the roiling element of the contract was based on winning trophies. Rolling contracts are very common in football and are essentially one year contracts so the club is limited in the compensation paid if they sack during the season.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Taken from the linked article below. 'Anyone who saw the recent World Club Challenge documentary will see the passion that he carries into his role and will understand why we have extended his contract for a =#FF0000minimum of three years and rolling thereafter. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... l-day.html I'm almost certain that the rolling contract was based on winning trophies, so the WCC win would give him at least a one year extension.'" I've not seen anything that states that the roiling element of the contract was based on winning trophies. Rolling contracts are very common in football and are essentially one year contracts so the club is limited in the compensation paid if they sack during the season.

I am sort of with you on this Chris.
I would love some wholesale changes however, we are where we are re contracts so next season we will be somewhat limited in what we can do.
Without knowing the exact details of individual contracts it is impossible to know what is the art of the possible and what is pretty much set in stone.

I would like to think that we could do at least the following for next season
Exit FPN, Narvette, Tierney and one of TL, MM or Powell. Even here I am assuming FPN wants to go back to Australia and we can move on players who may have time left on contracts with minimum payments to pay off their contracts.

That probably leaves us with the possibility of about 2 new additions on relatively low salaries ie I'm not anticipating any top or even 2nd tier NRL players. Personally I would go for 2 new props if possible.

Move ST to the halves and Escare to FB. Mullen to be cover for Escare.

I think then we are down to selling one or two players to help fund other changes. This for me would be the sale of one of our wingers probably Marshall or dare I say it Davies particularly if Manfredi & Burgess have long term injuries. This income could be then used for additional cover for either prop or second row. I would hate to lose Davies but for me you could put anyone outside of Gelling because he is never going to get a pass and as long as he can defend then that's as much as we will probably need.

All very much speculative and quite possibly a load of cobras but I think changes will probably entail losing player(s) that ideally we wouldn't even want to contemplate.

The year after look to exit JT, Clubb, TL or MM, Isa and ST if he isn't cutting the mustard in the halves.

As say totally and utterly speculative but I would be surprised that player or players wont have to sacrificed in the short term to help plug the gaps in the pack.

With regards SW my heart hopes that a new assistant may be sufficient but my head keeps on saying new coach.

Very testing times for IL. It would be interesting know how he actually feels. He must have loyalty to SW because of his record however, he would be blind if he thinks next years ST sales wont fall off a cliff unless fans see some changes on and off the park.

I'll put this here as it's relevant to the topic being discussed.

Rumours on the other forum saying Maguire is coming back and is due to be announced later this week - hmmm. I've had a message from an agent I sometimes play golf with who said the same thing and that it comes from contacts at Leeds - he did say he actually doesn't believe it as Maguire doesn't want to move his kids.

Not sure how I would react if it was true.
I thought that in his second year when we had significantly improved he squad we fell away quite dramatically at the end particularly against Saints in the playoffs where we were woeful.

The other rumour was Maguire to Gold Coast. Apparently they can't afford to pay top dollar to attract a new coach so Madge is unlikely to move there. Options may well have run out for him. It may be Wigan is his only choice.

I'd have him back, he is a good coach as he has proven. But if people on here don't like Waney's style of rugby they are unlikely to be pleased with Madge Mk II.

Not Wane and not Maguire, we need fresh ideas, we've not got a bad squad but the style we can only assume they're being told to play is killing the players, the fan base and the club.
It's supposed to be entertainment, watching Wigan is a chore, something being done out of loyalty rather than something I'm looking forward to.

I felt like we should have rotated more for sure, but we went unbeaten for 21 out of 22 games between mid-April and August that year which is incredible. As much as I've argued to give Wane another year, I'd definitely be happy to swap him for Maguire

As I have said in other posts I think the recruitment of former players was a mistake IMO driven partly out of a desire to prove what IL said about his policy of letting players leave if we had first refusal worked. The club has to my eyes not looked beyond these players when recruiting.



I would hope it would. He transformed an underperforming squad when he came over last time so I'd hope he do the same again. I am not sure where the tag of him being as boring as Wane comes from mentioned by others. I don't recall our GF and CC wins under him as boring.

I'd prefer Wigan to bring in a coach that could get more out of the good attacking players you have. The style employed currently is structured and when players don't do it properly it all falls apart. Also when you come up against better players it doesn't work as well. Maguire made Wigan very well drilled but he was ahead of the pack at that time. I'm not sure his methods are what you need now. Powell has shown at Cas that it's all very well playing to structure but you need the freedom to try things if they're on. I think too many Wigan players are playing within themselves and you need a new coach (not Wane or Maguire) to unlock that.