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| Quote ="Pieman"Makes me laugh as one team has been brought in and yet they havent even looked at the other applicants. What if Wakey have a better application than Widnes? Will they still be kicked out? What if every club has a better application than Widnes?'"
That is a problem and one of the RFL's own making when they said an NL team would definitely come up regardless.
It defeats the object of franchising IMO so although I am in favour of it over P&R I think they should do it properly and judge each case on its merits which they clearly are not going to be doing if all current SL clubs put a better package together than Widnes.
They other thing they did recently was say they were not going to judge soley on the prevous criteria and were not going to give grades like they did last time.
They will also introduce a [usubjective[/u criteria of what a side brings to SL and that I think, gets round the problem you highlight. The RFL could say "Yes Wakey's application is better than Widnes but Widnes will bring more to SL than Wakey staying there because Widnes are famous" or whatever.
It ought to mean Wigan can never lose the franchise because we are the most famous RL club in the world
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| I'm chuffed to see Widnes back in the top flight, they'll bring some big crowds with them which our sport is crying out for.
Congratulations to the Chemics.
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| Quote ="Leyther_Matt"Then they would have eventually been found out if playing at the top level and relying on buying in talent - it would have been their loss if they hadn't brought through talent and I don't think it's necessarily up to the RFL to decide that.'"
But without being forced into it clubs didn't used to do it at all levels of the game. And that's a fact.
Wigan always have and always have done but for a long time we were the only side with any real youth program. Leeds realised it was a good idea. They used to build sides off other clubs more or less completely if you look at the sides they had when Schofield was there. Wane from here went, Crooks, Schofield and so on all bought in and many others. When SL came about they went for youth development and it worked but for a time it was only really us and Leeds.
Quote Young players will always be brought through regardless of promotion and relegation - even we managed it on our last two excursions to the top flight.'"
I don't think that is true. Young players will never be risked in sides in the lower end of the table. It's win at all costs to avoid the drop. At least with the franchise system if you are out of contention for the play-offs you can plan for next season and blood some younger players. If you are out of contention for the play-offs in a P&R system then you are in a relegation fight and so that is not an option.
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| Quote ="Pieman"Makes me laugh as one team has been brought in and yet they havent even looked at the other applicants. What if Wakey have a better application than Widnes? Will they still be kicked out? What if every club has a better application than Widnes?'"
I do agree with that point. They made a mistake, IMO, in promising that one club would come up regardless of the state of the current SL clubs. The basic concept is still valid, though, and we're already seeing the benefits, even after such a short time.
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| Quote ="Pieman"Makes me laugh as one team has been brought in and yet they havent even looked at the other applicants. What if Wakey have a better application than Widnes? Will they still be kicked out? What if every club has a better application than Widnes?'"
Its unlikely because they went under anyway.
Also they could be sure of it because Widnes' ground is better than Wires and Halifax aint far behind I believe. Then there is the fact that youth development was increased in Championship rather than relying on SL cast offs like Widnes used to (cue Wigan vs Wigan B etc) then there is the fact that they knew that if Wakey and Cas didn't agree a ground share then one would be without a ground proposal in place in time and so could be sure that one of those could be disposed of.
The REAL test is whether they are fair. How can they claim that Wakey and Crusaders deserve to stay in SL when Widnes and Halifax are better off better managed financially and (probably) have better youth development than Crusaders (not sure of Wakeys I imagine it isn't going to be behind the Championship sides but you never know).
I dont want Crusaders to go because I want more Welsh players etc but I cant see how the RFL can fairly keep them and maintain this "fairness" idea.
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| Quote ="Pieman"Makes me laugh as one team has been brought in and yet they havent even looked at the other applicants. What if Wakey have a better application than Widnes? Will they still be kicked out? What if every club has a better application than Widnes?'"
I agree but I think we can pretty much guarantee that at least 3 clubs will have a worse application than Widnes.
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| Quote ="Pemps"I agree but I think we can pretty much guarantee that at least 3 clubs will have a worse application than Widnes.'"
Now, yes, though I'm not so sure it was as clear-cut back when they first made the promise. That was before Crusaders' and Wakey's financial problems, and before Wakey's stadium plans collapsed.
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| Quote ="Barmy Salami"Ha, i was thinking, 'oh dear God' when they were speaking to them.
As for the license, I don't think it's a joke, I just think they should look at maybe 2 years instead of 3, or bringing back promotion/relegation pretty soon.'"
Yeh when that questionnaire went round asking opinions on the current license system I suggested reverting to a 2 year period rather than 3. I think 2 years would mean the clubs in the superleague who are struggling to meet the current criteria would have to show some more urgency and the clubs who miss out in the championship have a quicker chance to re-apply. At the end of the next license period clubs will have had 6 years to sort themselves out and it is unforgiveable for any team not to have done. We should really have every SL team up to scratch with 4 or 5 teams below also in much better shape. Cant see it myself but that's what a franchise system should achieve.
Divided opinions on this I know but I also think after the next round of licenses the best way forward is to expand in to a 16 team league.
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| Am I the only one who would swap a custioned seat in an all seater stadium to standing, even when its raining in a traditional Rugby League stadium soaking up the atmosphere and history. I looked forward every year to attending these "2nd class" stadiums like cas and wakey. Give me atmosphere, not the sterile seating that we are all supposed to want. I would swap a season in DW for a night at Central Park. I hope Wakey get to stay put, the only way I'm going to feel the same atmosphere in the future is by Wigan drawing away in the Challenge Cup to a championship team. NOT ALL CHANGE IS GOOD
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www.superleague.co.uk/article.php?id=21609
Quote Halifax, who also meet the minimum criteria for membership of the sport’s premier competition, will now go forward to be assessed alongside the existing 14 Engage Super League clubs at the next stage of the licensing process which concludes in July.'"
Maybe a 16 team league?
It would make sense really, top 8, bottem 8 mini comps at end of season!
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www.superleague.co.uk/article.php?id=21609
Quote Halifax, who also meet the minimum criteria for membership of the sport’s premier competition, will now go forward to be assessed alongside the existing 14 Engage Super League clubs at the next stage of the licensing process which concludes in July.'"
Maybe a 16 team league?
It would make sense really, top 8, bottem 8 mini comps at end of season!
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| Quote ="uglybug"Am I the only one who would swap a custioned seat in an all seater stadium to standing, even when its raining in a traditional Rugby League stadium soaking up the atmosphere and history. I looked forward every year to attending these "2nd class" stadiums like cas and wakey. Give me atmosphere, not the sterile seating that we are all supposed to want. I would swap a season in DW for a night at Central Park. I hope Wakey get to stay put, the only way I'm going to feel the same atmosphere in the future is by Wigan drawing away in the Challenge Cup to a championship team. NOT ALL CHANGE IS GOOD'"
Plenty of grounds in our league are better than those in Super League! I'd say the LSV, the Shay, Batley etc have got the balance right of a stadium with modern facilities but still being able to stand up etc.
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| Quote ="uglybug"Am I the only one who would swap a custioned seat in an all seater stadium to standing, even when its raining in a traditional Rugby League stadium soaking up the atmosphere and history. I looked forward every year to attending these "2nd class" stadiums like cas and wakey. Give me atmosphere, not the sterile seating that we are all supposed to want. I would swap a season in DW for a night at Central Park. I hope Wakey get to stay put, the only way I'm going to feel the same atmosphere in the future is by Wigan drawing away in the Challenge Cup to a championship team. NOT ALL CHANGE IS GOOD'"
For our sport to be taken seriously all the teams have to be playing in modern stadia. Some of the grounds are almost 100 years old and falling to pieces. Yes I agree I like going to Salford, Wakefield, Cas, Knowsley Road etc but these facilities aren't good enough for top flight sport. Sentiment has to be thrown out I'm afraid.
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| Quote ="Geoff"Now, yes, though I'm not so sure it was as clear-cut back when they first made the promise. That was before Crusaders' and Wakey's financial problems, and before Wakey's stadium plans collapsed.'"
I agree with this. What does confuse me is what happens next. We've got 14 current teams plus Widnes (guaranteed) and Halifax getting a shot at it. Does that mean 15 teams go into the hat (excluding Widnes) and the best 13 are in SL with Widnes?
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| Quote ="Pemps"I agree with this. What does confuse me is what happens next. We've got 14 current teams plus Widnes (guaranteed) and Halifax getting a shot at it. Does that mean 15 teams go into the hat (excluding Widnes) and the best 13 are in SL with Widnes?'"
Yes this is how it is at the moment unless the RFL decide on some sort of league expansion. (although I vaguely remember an announcement saying this wouldnt happen?) Halifax's application will now be reviewed alongside the current 14 SL teams and of those 2 will miss out.
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| PERSONALLY, I would like to see the following:
SL1
8 teams playing 21 games
SL2
8 teams playing 21 games
Promotion and relegation between the 2 SL divisions with a cup competition involving all SL clubs and proper 9's tournament, involving all SL clubs.
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| It could be that the decision on the image rights problem will be soon. IF RL clubs lose and have to pay in full then some will be in serious financial trouble.
The RFL may decide to allow one tho leave SL and bring Halifax in as they meet the criteria.
That could be why the RFL are still talking up Halifax's chances.
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| Quote ="KyleJones"www.superleague.co.uk/article.php?id=21609
Maybe a 16 team league?
It would make sense really, top 8, bottem 8 mini comps at end of season!'"
The SL chairmen would never vote for it, not unless there's a massive increase in TV money from Sky or whoever gets the contract.
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| Quote ="Geoff"The SL chairmen would never vote for it, not unless there's a massive increase in TV money from Sky or whoever gets the contract.'"
I'd like to see a 16 team league with one of the terrestrial broadcasters getting a Sunday afternoon kick off on top of Skys current schedule. Should increase the TV money.
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| Quote ="Bridger"PERSONALLY, I would like to see the following:
SL1
8 teams playing 21 games
SL2
8 teams playing 21 games
Promotion and relegation between the 2 SL divisions with a cup competition involving all SL clubs and proper 9's tournament, involving all SL clubs.'" Would never work
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| Quote ="uglybug"Am I the only one who would swap a custioned seat in an all seater stadium to standing, even when its raining in a traditional Rugby League stadium soaking up the atmosphere and history. I looked forward every year to attending these "2nd class" stadiums like cas and wakey. Give me atmosphere, not the sterile seating that we are all supposed to want. I would swap a season in DW for a night at Central Park. I hope Wakey get to stay put, the only way I'm going to feel the same atmosphere in the future is by Wigan drawing away in the Challenge Cup to a championship team. NOT ALL CHANGE IS GOOD'"
The DW is soulless. I love going to the terraced grounds - much better atmosphere and experience.
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| Quote ="hula89"[uIts unlikely because they went under anyway.[/u
Also they could be sure of it because Widnes' ground is better than Wires and Halifax aint far behind I believe. Then there is the fact that youth development was increased in Championship rather than relying on SL cast offs like Widnes used to (cue Wigan vs Wigan B etc) then there is the fact that they knew that if Wakey and Cas didn't agree a ground share then one would be without a ground proposal in place in time and so could be sure that one of those could be disposed of.
The REAL test is whether they are fair. How can they claim that Wakey and Crusaders deserve to stay in SL when Widnes and Halifax are better off better managed financially and (probably) have better youth development than Crusaders (not sure of Wakeys I imagine it isn't going to be behind the Championship sides but you never know).
I dont want Crusaders to go because I want more Welsh players etc but I cant see how the RFL can fairly keep them and maintain this "fairness" idea.'"
doesnt count anymore, otherwise quins and crusaders would be in trouble. They changed the ruling after the Quins thing. Wakey might have gone under but were allowed to spend 1.65 million. I bet Wakeys turnover is more than Widnes's. which would give them a point. Better academy and have bigger crowds than Widnes.
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| Quote ="hula89"The REAL test is whether they are fair. How can they claim that Wakey and Crusaders deserve to stay in SL when Widnes and Halifax are better off better managed financially and (probably) have better youth development than Crusaders (not sure of Wakeys I imagine it isn't going to be behind the Championship sides but you never know).
I dont want Crusaders to go because I want more Welsh players etc but I cant see how the RFL can fairly keep them and maintain this "fairness" idea.'"
You have answered your own question. You don't want the Crusaders to go, well I'd hazard a guess neither do the RFL which is why they have this cop out they introduced about not merely considering objective criteria.
As I said that is why they could guarantee Widnes a place despite the possibility of all SL sides putting in a better bid than Widnes.
I am sure if the rules had not changed and say Wakefield's bid was better but they were relegated they would seek legal redress. With the new rules that is much harder to do. It also means the Crusaders bid could be technically worse then both Widnes and Wakefields but the RFL could choose to keep the Crusaders in the SL and relegate Wakey.
If this kind of thing happens I'd expect a huge stink about it anyway so I am sure the RFL would prefer it if the issue was clear cut and the best objective bids won franchises.
The problem is expansion sides are rarely strong enough to compete outright even with well run NL1 sides after a mere 3 year franchise. It's going to take much longer than that (just look at Quins) before a purely objective system could be used. The RFL should just admit it and state which teams are immune from the drop for the foreseeable future.
Lets not forget it has taken Widnes and Halifax a lot of time and effort to get to this stage themselves so expecting a team like the Crusaders with its recent history to be as good bid-wise is possibly not being realistic. So its all about if the RFL want the Crusaders in at any price.
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| Quote ="king warrior"Would never work'"
Because...
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| Quote ="Bridger"Because...'" How would you split the sides up?
Plus fans would get bored playing each teams over and over!
We get people crying about how we play too many games compared to the aussies yet you want to add a 7's?
It would make our game even more of a joke than it already is
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| Quote ="king warrior" How would you split the sides up?'"
Top 8 from the season before in Div 1, rest + 2 from Champs in Div 2.
Quote ="king warrior"Plus fans would get bored playing each teams over and over!'"
It's quite conceivable to play clubs 3+ times in a season already.
Quote ="king warrior"We get people crying about how we play too many games compared to the aussies yet you want to add a 7's?'"
Do the maths. We currently play 27 rounds + cup games + play-offs. My structure would be take away 6 SL games and replace them with a maximum of 4 cup rounds and a 9's, which is up to 4 games per season less.
Quote ="king warrior"It would make our game even more of a joke than it already is '"
Why? Licences for SL and p&r between the 2 divisions. Keeps everybody happy.
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