That may be true regarding the number of games he has actually played but you are not suggesting this was the plan all along? That is he was always going to play in the games he has played in?

If he has reached a quota of games should he not play any more this season?



Which of course means any notion that a young player should only play a certain number of games is daft. If they are good enough they are old enough as Tomkins is proving. Stating a player will only get a certain number of games leaves you with a self imposed restriction you may regret.

I think many of us would have liked to have seen both these players be given the odd game in 2008 because they would have benefited form the experience. Ainscough is 20 in September I think, Sam has turned 20 already. So I think there is something in what the o/p says in that they ought not to be coming from nowhere and at this age and already have more appearances than they do under their belts.

However I don't think prescribing a young player should only play a certain number of games depending what season they are in and at some point simply be dropped regardless of form because he has played a few games (which is what happened to Ainscough) is sensible or beneficial to the player.



So do you think J Tomkins would have been brought through if Lockers had not got injured? I don't and I know others think the same.



Leneghan may well be keen on youth but all of J Tomkins, S Tomkins and Ainscough got the chances they did because of injury or suspensions. Not one of them was deliberately introduced at the time they were to give them some game time. I can't remember if that has ever happened at all under Noble. Prescott and O'Carroll are two of only five props at the club so I don't even think they count as Noble has little alternative but to play one of them if he insists on a four prop team.

We produce the young players but under Noble it has IMO been mismanaged and if the squad remained fully fit I doubt we would have seen Sam T and Ainscough much at all.

Dave

It is a factor in Stains favour but that is still no excuse. If this is the case why don't Wigan have a team? With experienced internationals to help ease the introduction of young players to the squad. Who fault is this?

Well Brian Noble is the man that says the players he wants in the squad.

I think your last part is interesting.

I don't think we have a winning mentality anymore, like we used to. It's the reason why I would love to have people like Farrell, Hanley and Edwards involved. I think your off to a flyer straight away if you believe you can win. Imagine what people think when they see Federer accross the court or Tiger Woods on the score sheet or Ronnie O'Sullivan on the other chair at the crucible or lined up next to Usain Bolt on the track or what teams used to think coming to central park seeing our great players on the other side of the field, we do not hold this threat anymore, we do not believe we will win and the opposition do not think we are more a threat to them than they are to us.

This is a long term thing, we have got ourselves in this mess over many years and saints have built that amazing team over many seasons, which is why we should be building now, but are we really? I am not sure.

IL said he had a 4/5 year plan when he took over. Does the recruitment suggest this with the obvious flaws in the side i.e prop forward, quality halfback, leadership.

I'm not sure who is to blame for that Brian Noble or IL.

At age 20 both Burrow and McQuire featured in every game Leeds played that season. They started some games and came off the bench in others but they played in something like 26 or more matches.



It is a poor excuse but not just because we have some experienced players around. Other sides besides Leeds and Saints are playing younger players than Tomkins and Ainscough regularly. Is Myler at Salford suffering because he hasn't got top class players to guide him? Seems to be doing OK to me.

Dave

Not to mention Joe Westerman and Sam Burgess. Hardly in a quality world class outfits themselves.

At the height of are success, I always remember my dad pointing at the opposition team and saying that they were already mentally beaten, and all it would take would be an early try and the opposition team would crumble even further, that was a major difference for me that helped the great team of the 80's and 90's have so much success, that the opposition would turn up already mentally beaten.
ST Helens on Friday night put 50 past Cas, don't tell me that those Cas players don't remember that hiding they got earlier in the season from Saints and were probably dreading playing on Friday night in fear of what might happen. Once somebody's mentally beaten there pretty much out of it.
We at Wigan are suckers for always going down first against less fancied teams just like Celtic on Saturday, Celtic once they scored visibly improved and gained in confidence, had we gone on to score early and first I can just imagine there heads dropping and the game becoming increasingley easier for us.

The difference between us and saints before the game has even started is that we look at the other team and think we can win but saints look at themselves and know they are more then capable of beating any team.

Add to that the likes of Ellis at Wakey, Wilkin at Hull KR, im sure theres plenty more. Its common knowledge IL is looking hard at why so many youngsters come through at Wigan but dont go all the way to the top.

Kris Radlinski explains why in his book. Read it.

I think I may have caused some confusion about drip feeding players into the squad by giving numbers of games. I wasn't stating that there should be a concrete plan set out where a young lad will play only x number of times and no more at 18, then y number of times and no more at 19 and so on. These were just arbitrary numbers to put accross the point that I think players will cope better if given an increasing number of games each season from a younger age rather than waiting two more years in the reserves with no first team experience and then being thrown into most games when either the coach willingly chooses or is forced to. Whilst there will be some players like Sam Tomkins who can do well if thrust straight in (Myler in my view is a different case as he played NL for Widnes and Salford before SL) many more will fail so going from nowhere to first team regular is not a good way to introduce young players.

Considering I warned you yesterday, that was a bit of a stupid comment wasn't it?



Bye!

Imagine what it'll be like on here if they beat us in the semi

At present it's not a matter of 'if' it's a matter of 'when'.

Hate to say it but it's true.

I think we have established on here that the title of this thread is all wrong, there is more than 2 major problems at Wigan.

One of the things that certainly isn't wrong with Wigan is the fans. I am constantly impressed with their commitment to the "team" if the team had half the same commitment they would be top 4 easy. The squad is good enough, on paper, but where is the direction and / or coaching? It pains me to say it but if Saints were in the same position as wigan, we would struggle to get 7000 on.

Fairplay to you saying that, respect, not many fans can say things like that about Wigan. I think we would have an average around 18-20,000 had we played like saints for the last 2 years.

Hull fans are the same really we and them have had poor teams for some years now, not performing on the field but both doing it right off the field in terms of fans.

I think the fans showed their metal when we nearly got relegated a couple of years back yet our crowds went up in the process to cheer and help the side avoid relegation.

Unfortunatly they've dropped a touch this year due to the fact that people are bored of being mid table.

We really do need to progress the side now.

That turned out to be a great year for that reason. I was so proud of all our fans that year. The Leeds away game was amazing. Even the west stand stood up singing that season. The atmosphere has been the worst in super league this year. We really needed to kick on from that relegation year but we have not quite delivered since. Fans are starting to lose patience and not going to games, crowds are on the way down. If it carries on we will start seeing crowds of below 10,000 again. We should be averaging 16,000 at least. IL said a figure like 20,000 to be averaging in 5 years but thats not gonna happen.

If after having your fingers burned with Fielden you don't drive a stake through the heart of the "If you're good enough you're old enough" mantra on sight you deserve everything you get.

Continental football coaches (not the English let's-go-out-on-the-lash-for-team-bonding failures) who listen to the advice of sports scientists have long understood that you can't dump a mature pro's workload on a kid. It kills them.

Yep.........Faz and Edwards and Robinson turned out to be rubbish didn't they?

Every kid that ever comes into a first team before the age of 20 doesn't always end up in a heap come their late 20's but i do get your point.

Unless your a physical freak like an Inglis or Folau any young kid will need resting every so often but Noble doesn't do 'rests', he does 'dropping' or more to the point leaving any kid out however well they've played so he doesn't put a more senior players noce out of joint.

That is what we lack in this country we do not produce players like this.

Pick out the best we have brought through in this country recnetly, Roby, Graham and Burgess, they do not even begin to compare to Inglis and Folau.

Science quakes in its boots.