Yes, this was the point I was trying to make about Liam Farrell. Our lack of size was VERY apparent today. It seems a lot of our props such as Flower (when hes back), Mossop, Clubb and Patrick are actually more 'beefed up' second rowers than out-and-out props.

Our backrow, whilst having enormous potential, is also pretty small.

Im all for giving kids a chance but the reason forwards usually come through later than backs at most teams is because they need to put size on. Greenwood and Sutton still look a little light for me.

Tautai will help us with size but will he be enough?

Of course Saints are a bigger than average team and we're a younger than average team so to an extent this size mismatch is to be expected. But today it was probably the first time in a few years, especiAally the first half, where i've seen Wigan genuinely struggle to deal with an opposition pack.

I have to be honest I'm not a big fan of Farrell. I know that many will not agree with that but I genuinely don't know what he brings.

He clearly has his moments and can run a good line but he drops too much ball, his discipline is not great and he lacks size. I appreciate the size element can't be helped. Faz will look great against poor teams but lacks the ability to impact in big games.

We have been saying we need size got a few years now yet we are still running with a small pack especially in the backrow. I think we could carry that if we went huge in the frontrow but again we haven't. I genuinely don't understand the Patrick signing.

Tautai will do some damage, I still think we should have been looking for a big experienced Prop. We are crying out for a Scott Logan or Craig Smith yet we sign a small to average sized backrow convert to play up front.

Wigan are clearly lacking size up front but have a back row to match any in SL.
The youngsters coming through are very raw and need time to fill out I think.
Sutton is the pick from the academy forwards currently IMO and Wigan did well to persuade him not to go to Australia.

Tbf we've been saying we need a "big experienced prop" for about 6 years. And also tbf, our pack has been battered many times since then - especially last year - but our backs have constantly bailed us out. Which is why it's even more concerning that we don't have a solid 6 and 7 yet because our playbook moves where we can score from 60 yards just won't come off.

And I kinda agree with you about Farrell. For a guy so small I can't believe just how slow he is and he's often a liability with penalties. But then he'll make a 50 yard break or appear on the end of an offload and score a vital try.

In Locky we have a world class 13. I expect big things from Tomkins this year for me Faz and Bateman should be competing for a spot in the 17 not accommodating them both.


I think we talk our backrow up a lot but in truth it could be significantly improved fairly comfortably.

I hear that Gareth Carvell is still looking for a club



No, but in all seriousness, I was genuinely shocked today at how dominated we were in the forwards. I've never seen that happen under Wane before. Even when we've lost in the past its been a close call but we struggled at times to make any metres and they were rolling through us like bulldozers.

In reality, it obviously means little in terms of the result and Tautai and O'Loughlin will be back soon. BUT one thing is does bring into question is our lack of size. I love seeing academy products get a chance but I remember a Paul Prescott interview a few years ago when he retired and he said "Im proud to have represented my hometown club in a position where so few other local lads have succeeded". He obviously meant at prop and its interesting because realistically the biggest players are often the ones with Pacific Islander heritage and as much as Wane loves bringing young local lads through I think Prop will be a position we may have to bring others in.

Sutton will go on to be great with us by the way but still needs a bit more size. I think Wane realizes we need to break our 'homegrown' policy in order to add size to the pack and this is evident from the signing of Tautai.

Farrell scares the life out of me when he has the ball. He looks like he can make a break ever time he gets the ball against saints. He always seems to score as well.

Whilst the results of the last two weeks are meaningless the performances aren't.

The negatives - Hampshire has no positional sense, he can't catch or tackle. So he's not a full back. He did play well at Stand off against an under strength Leigh team. That doesn't mean he's ready for Super League, because he's not.

The pack have been dominated. The props aren't big enough.

Joel is not a centre. Gildart is not ready. Sarginson may be needed at Full back.

Williams has offered nothing and is nowhere near ready. Our failure to replace Blake Green with a seasoned pro may backfire. The Dragons, Saints, even Hull KR and Cas, have quite possibly recruited better than we have.

The positives -There really haven't been any.

The way we finished last season gave me great hope for this one. However, there is lots to be concerned about. I know that people who haven't bothered going to the Leigh and Saints games are going to come on and slaughter me saying that there hasn't been a ball kicked yet and you are writing us off. I'm not - but I'm very concerned. If there was anyone there yesterday who isn't concerned I'd be surprised.

Except for the actual cup final which is Saint's cup final. Oh and the league year which they came top of last year, Then yes apart from those two little things then yes this was Saint's cup final.

Selling them to Australia

3 pages and the first bite! Took a little longer than he was hoping for I bet!

Hahaha caught a massive one there, Pacific.

Can't agree more, I would probably if someone recorded me at the game sound a right miserable sod lol as I took apart our performance which was worryingly dreadful, fair enough we were better in the 2nd half but we couldn't of played worse than the 1st half. where only a week and half away from the start of the season as well!!

I never pay any attention in practice games. They are just for players to have a run out and get some match fitness

Nice of you to be magnanimous in victory but I'm not sure you'd feel the same if the tables were turned. The game was VERY competitive yesterday, and Wigan were bullied out of it. It was over as a contest at half time. The score in the end flattered us.

I expected us to come out and play better in the second half (and we did) because Shaun Wane's teams NEVER get on the wrong side of an absolute drubbing. But really, we were playing for pride. The manner of the defeat is very worrying.

I think people need to remember that Tautai, Mossop, Joel and O'Loughlin were all missing from our pack yesterday and will likely all be in there for the Widnes game, with Flower further strengthening the pack when he returns. Add them in and perhaps we don't get hammered in the pack, giving us territory and the halfbacks a platform to work off. We still had a good side out there and should have put in a much better performance but let's not go ott. I remember us looking absolutely terrible for the full game against Wire in Ben Westwood's testimonial, then we went on to win the double

Agree completely

Like I say the most woirrying element was how susceptible we were to the size of their pack.

Anyone who saw the game yesterday would rightfully be worried about the size of our pack. Of course, to use the cliche "Its only pre-season" and no doubt this was partially responsible for our forwards poor performance but what surprised me most yesterday was just how easily they bulldozed through us. Like I said, Ive honestly never seen our pack as beaten before since the days of Brian Noble. Im not overly worried because it is just a trial game but I honestly was surprised. The problem is our pack wasnt great last year either and as has been said, our backs bailed them out. Im just watching the highlights back now and I never thought Id say it but Mose Masoe actually managed to look like a Rugby League player.

A few other individual observances from Wigan TV highlights:

1) Most of their offloads were when Ryan Sutton failed to connect properly in tackle.

2) Hampshire better expect to catch a lot of high balls now if hes playing fullback this season.

3) George Williams. He honestly offered nothing and his performance gets worse everytime I see it.

Im sure we'll be better for the Widnes game but these facts and performances cant be ignored. I remember last preseaon when we were a little worried about goal kicking and we had to put up with the usual cliches from happy clappers "he'll improve as the season goes on" "its just a trial game, hes not trying to convert them properly" etc. Fact is goal kicking was poor all last year and cost us a top spot finish. (Hull KR away). Lets hope the size issue and lack of quality standoff doesnt hold us back this year.

I think we need to be careful with the likes of Hampshire, Williams and Burgess. The truth is that this is in reality their first season outside the u19's age group and they're going to make mistakes. The last thing we meed is another Kev Brown, Luke Robinson scenario where the fans get on their backs and they lose confidence. Hopefully they'll get around the 15 -20 games played this year. They should both be very important players for us in the coming years.

On Burgess, yesterday we had couple of "fans" shouting "F OFF" to Australia, I stress it was only one or two that I heard, but it's stupidity of the highest order IMO.

I think we'll be fine.
Our top 17 last year produced the best performances all year, especially in the run of home games up to Old Trafford.
The pack depth is stronger than last year, and the many youngsters are a year older.
The only change of note is at 6, and even there it's not as if we are changing the whole spine of the team (and we put in some more than decent performances without Green). I cannot see any rational basis for despair after a friendly.
This was against a Saints side who know in their heart of hearts they were the second best team to make the Grand Final. That sense of a hollow victory clearly provided more motivation than we had, treating it as a friednly. We'll be right.

How is that the truth?

Hampshire played 7 first-team games in 2013 and 8 last year (would've been more if he wasn't injured).
Williams played 4 in 2013 and 23 last year.
And Burgess played almost every game last year.

They've either been around or certainly at least training full-time with the first team for at least 18 months now. Did Williams or Burgess even line up for the U19's last year?

Hell, Bateman is only a year older than them but we don't give him the same slack.

In a sense it is the structure of the game that is at fault. Wigan think they have future stars here and are being forced to give opportunities to kids in order to keep them happy, otherwise they move elsewhere. However it is painfully clear that these kids are nowhere near ready to play full back or half back in a top Super League team. Ideally they should be given another year or two at Reserve team/A team/ U 20 level before being promoted to the first team. Wigan are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If Hampshire/Williams aren't played then they start getting itchy feet, we then stand to lose them.

On Burgess. I agree that fans should NEVER barrack their own players, it's unforgivable. But Joe has opened himself up to the mindless idiots, and he will get more of it before long. My guess is that Manfredi will be playing a lot more than Burgess. Mind you Joe may need to get used to it (the barracking), Aussie crowds are not universally known for their clear minded and even handed attitude to Poms!

The first 40 was worrying yesterday but I remember having the same thoughts in pre-season in 2013 particularly against Wire for Westwood's testimonial. That day it looked like men against boys in regards to size, likewise yesterday. It is obvious Cunningham has bulked up the Saints side in terms of both fat and muscle, even players like Wilkin and Turner are carrying substantially more weight this year by the looks of it. Now carrying body fat in is not necessarily a bad think in RL, there are some sports science experts claiming that there is no need to train for body fat loss for events <120 minutes. I was surprised how lean and small our side was compared to Saints.

We also need to consider that we were missing 6/7 players yesterday whom the majority will be in the first 17. It's a long season and I'm not stressed about yesterday as we at least showed some heart in the second half. I'm pretty sure we'll be right for Widnes.

Widnes beat us last week mate. Didn't you win the friendly last year and went on to win the double.

These games mean nothing in reality.

How did we do in pre-season games last year?