And then you add to it with another accusation! Everyone would be wise not to comment further until the truth behind his retirement and the silence from Saints is known.

Nowhere in my post did I accuse anyone of anything. I simply agree with the probability.

Mate, you can agree or disagree with the probability all you want. That, of course, is your prerogative. However, at the time of writing, there are no grounds, medical or otherwise, to support that viewpoint and the fact that someone else has posted something similar to your personal viewpoint (a post which contains inaccuracies may I add) doesn't justify your previous post.

There are some contentious views on this thread and many that are unnecessarily weighted in favour of one side of the argument or the other. That's normal for these type of forums. Posting "15 pages of bitterness, lies and accusations and then this. Word perfect." puts your own posts right in amongst them though, but as long as your including your own posts in that assessment I have no issue with it.

As to the Reaper's post itself; it was an excellent addition to the debate and well balanced in tone. The sort of post I wish there was more of on these boards. It falls down on a couple facts (IMO of course) and I'll address these separately in a direct response to his. I do feel you do him a disservice though posting as you did. Agree, by all means, but let's not keep bringing it back down to playground squabbling. There's more than enough people willing to do that already!

It was always going to come down to that. I think Saints/Lance Hohaia should have quashed it if they don't know for sure (Or maybe they knew what would happen if they were as vague as they were?). Simply saying what they did opens the door for all of this, and if it turns out not to be the case, they're going to look daft. Ian Milward actually wrote in Sporting Life that Hohaia has retired because of the punches in the GF.

To be fair, Ian Millward doesn't know the difference between his own ärse and a hole in the ground most of the time.

I don't agree. There is no bitterness or accusations or lies in my posts. Simply an opinion that it's likely that Flower had caused the problem Hohaia now has.

Compare that to some of the other posts on here which include accusations of him making the injury up, wanting to get out of his contract, saints wanting rid of him to sign anew full back,etc. Thats what I meant by lies and bitterness.

Hi mate. Great post on a subject that seems unable to attract to many things worth reading! I disagree with some of what you have posted but I think we can all agree on the last paragraph.



First of all you say you think "in all probability" this was caused by the incident in the GF. Whilst I don't disagree that it may well have some bearing (dependant on the medical diagnosis which, at the moment, isn't public domain) the actual cause in the vast majority of these cases is cumulative. In particular, the incidence of PCS in sports related cases which in itself is much lower than in other forms of head trauma, have almost universally been attributed to multiple concussions. There is no reason, given Lance's background, that this should be any different in this case.

I think it also useful to clear up what it is we are talking about here. Lance has said that he is suffering "PCS-like symptoms". As far as I am aware this hasn't been medically diagnosed as PCS yet but please correct me if you know differently. All the symptoms of PCS are found independently and are often attributable to other things. Even when attributed to PCS there is some controversy as to the actual causes. Most persistent PCS symptoms fall into the psychological category such as depression, irritability, lack of sleep etc. rather than the physiological ones that Lance has complained of.

The fact of the matter is that concussion, as I'm sure you already know, is[u not [/upermanent. It's medical definition is a " immediate and transient alteration in brain function". Similarly PCS is not a 'concussion that won't go away' as some seem to think but rather is a 'catch-all' medical term to describe a whole range of symptoms that patients can experience post concussion. Again, this is not a permanent condition and, in most cases, clears within weeks, months or, in extreme cases, a year or more. By this stage it is usually defined as PPCS or 'Persistent Post Concussive Syndrome'. Again this is not generally regarded as a permanent and very often the treatment is the same as for depression. Citalopram is often the drug of choice.

It's also worth noting that the incidence of PPCS is almost twice as likely in those seeking compensation compared to those who aren't! I don't write this in any way as a slight on Lance. I have no reason to doubt his claims whatsoever and, in fact, at this stage we don't even know that he is seeking compensation. I post it merely to illustrate how flawed the medical evidence is once it gets to this stage. It's a VERY controversial subject right now.

Once these type of injuries are regarded as permanent it ceases to be PCS and becomes TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). This is a whole different discussion and, again at the time of writing, we have no evidence to suggest this is relevant to Lance.

Sorry about the long winded explanations above but I think there is a lot of opinion being bandied about and I wanted to explain why I wrote that the condition isn't permanent. According to current medical thinking it isn't although it is sometimes used to incorrectly describe a different condition and I think this is where the confusion arises.

Back to Lance's particular case to end with. As someone else said above, until we know more about his particular case it's very difficult to comment. The only facts that have come to light are that he is suffering 'PCS-like symptoms' and has decided to retire. As I said in my original post, given that his symptoms are unlikely to be permanent this is, in all likelihood, to be as much to do with his personal circumstances than any suggestion that he will never recover, as some people have taken it to mean. Someone on the Saints board has said that he had been considering going to the US with his wife who is from there for some time. Factors like this, his age, the possible length of rehabilitation or even that he may have been featuring less in Saints plans are highly likely to have played a part in his decision. I'm sure we all wish him well.

The bit in bold is an accusation. Moreover it is one that is backed up by nothing other than personal opinion. At what point do you regard unsubstantiated accusations as containing bitterness or lies?

Why lies have I told? It's just my opinion.

And there's no bitterness at all. As I keep pointing out it's just my opinion. I don't want or need you to agree with said opinion. Just accept it.

So posting something you don't know to be true is not lying? That's an interesting take on it!

In that case how are the other peoples' posts that you mention lying? Surely they're just posting an opinion as you are? Which is it?

And for the record I absolutely [udo not[/u need to just accept your opinion. That is the nature of public forums.

What's the point of me sticking YG on my ignore list if you keep quoting him?

It is a lie to say saints and or hohaia have made up this injury to get him off the books.

It is an opinion for me to say I think it's likely that flower caused the injury.

By "accept it" I meant accept that it's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it to accept it.

Do you understand what an opinion is? You seem to be struggling.

Sorry JJ! Haha..

I'm not struggling at all. It's quite clear now that the definition of a lie is "an untruth told by someone other than Yellow Giraffe".

The fact is, your assumption that Flower is the sole cause of Hohaia's problems is no more the truth than an other unsubstantiated theory doing the rounds. If, for example, it comes to light that Hohaia doesn't pursue Flower at what point does your 'opinion' become a lie? Similarly if it does transpire that part of the reason for Lance retiring was because he no longer figured in Saints plans at what point do the other people's 'lies' become opinion oe even truth.

You are not the sole arbiter of what is opinion and what is lie. At this stage they are ALL opinions or they are ALL lies depending on what terminology you prefer to use. Further down the line one or the other (or indeed parts of several) opinion(s) will turn out to be the truth. Until that time anything based on anything other than known fact is just so much hot air. Yours included.

He has just gone on mine too...

You are wrong. You are missing one vital piece of information and that is that I know, 100% fact, that Hohaia has had these symptoms and they are the cause of his retirement. Therefore, I know, 100% fact, that it is a false accusation/a lie to state that he has retired simply so Saints can sign a full back. I don't need to go into what I know or how but there are several people on the Saints board who can vouch for the information I get hold of.

So they aren't all opinions or all lies. Some of them are opinions, some are ridiculous accusations.

My opinion about the cause of the symptoms may get proven to be wrong, in which case I will hold my hands up and say I simply got it wrong.

Moderators don't have an ignore function

Some folk hate the truth that much that they have to "ignore" anyone who posts things they don't like to hear. Fantastic.

My heart goes out to you. You must wade through some right old s**te.

But you DON'T KNOW that the sole cause is the Grand Final incident. In fact I can tell you from personal experience that it will almost certainly never be solely attributed to this. Therefore your 'opinion' that it is, is equally as wrong as those suggesting it was so Saints could sign a fullback or any of the other made up opinions that are being peddled. So yes; they are all opinions or they are all lies. You can choose the terminology.

If you 'get it wrong' will you hold your hands up and say you were part of the "15 pages of bitterness, lies and accusations"? Let's face it; those saying that he left for other reasons could equally say "oops! Sorry, I got it wrong!".

When you start posting it you can use this argument. Or is your 'opinion' now the de facto truth?

I have never said I do know it's the sole cause!!!! I've said its my opinion. What is it about that very simple thing that you are failing to comprehend? You are getting two principles mixed up here and we are going round in circles.

I'll keep it very simple.

I know it is a fact that he has retired because of the symptoms. It's not an opinion, it is fact. Therefore, I know that people are falsely accusing him and the club of lying. They are doing this without anything whatsoever to support the claim; they are simply throwing theories out there to discredit Hohaia and/or Saints.

Secondly, it is only my opinion that the Flower punch is the likely cause of these symptoms. That opinion is based on what I've been told about his symptoms and the initial diagnosis.

Surely you can see the difference? I have an opinion based on facts. Others are creating their own theories based on nothing.

I really couldn't make it more simple for you.

In that case tell me what about his symptoms lead you to this conclusion. The reason I ask that is because there is NO diagnosis that could conclude this. It is simply impossible to tell except post mortem. As I say, I am speaking from personal experience of a very similar court case here so I [uknow[/u this not to be true both legally and medically. Sorry to call you out publicly on this but you are now trying to argue what I know to be, shall we say, untruths and passing them off as fact.

Unless you can offer me evidence to the contrary (and I know you can't) then I'm afraid which ever way you dress this up, your conclusion that Flower is the likely cause of his symptoms is based on nothing but your own opinion.

Incidentally, I say sole reason because that is the implication of what you are saying. Nowhere have you said anything otherwise. You put it firmly at the door of Flower.

Sorted

That, unfortunately works the other way too!!!!

Wow. That bit in bold is complete and utter nonsense and I suspect you know it. You are either really struggling with the whole fact and opinion concept or you are trying to make me out to be a liar. If it's the latter then it's a poor attempt because I have been very clear with my thoughts on this and at no point have I claimed any untruths to be facts. I am not trying to pass it off as fact that Flower's punch has caused Hohaia's symptoms. I have made that extremely clear on several occasions and yet you keep putting words into my mouth. Just for clarity:

IT IS ONLY MY OPINION THAT BEN FLOWER'S PUNCH CAUSED LANCE HOHAIA'S SYMPTOMS. I AM NOT PASSING THAT OFF AS FACT. IT IS MY OPINION BASED ON INFORMATION I HAVE BEEN GIVEN. NOBODY I HAVE SPOKEN TO IS ATTEMPTING TO PASS THIS OFF AS FACT EITHER.



There is not a cat in hell's chance that I am going public with information given to me on a matter such as this. I don't go public with signings and team news so I certainly won't be doing it with this. I haven't claimed there is evidence that proves anything, I have simply said I have an opinion which is strengthened by information I have been given.



Really, I have to explain this again?? I am not implying anything. I am being very clear and boldly stating that IN MY OPINION, the likely cause if Hohaia's symptoms is Flower's punch. It is not an implication, nor is it a declaration of fact, it is an opinion.