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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Many people in here don't seem to be able to see that.'"
Just another example of how many people on here view things as either black or white and don't see the grey.
Just because he has no creativity in his game doesn't mean he doesn't have many other strengths.
I guess it just boils down to what people believe to be most important in a hooker. Some will accept average attack as a result of rugged defence. I just happen to think creativity is the main thing you need from your hooker.
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| Quote ="MadDogg"Just another example of how many people on here view things as either black or white and don't see the grey.
Just because he has no creativity in his game doesn't mean he doesn't have many other strengths.
I guess it just boils down to what people believe to be most important in a hooker. Some will accept average attack as a result of rugged defence. I just happen to think creativity is the main thing you need from your hooker.'"
Hooker has become the new traditional 7 they have to guide us round the field and provide field position for plays. MM does not do this. For me it is that simple.
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| Quote ="jonh"Hooker has become the new traditional 7 they have to guide us round the field and provide field position for plays. MM does not do this. For me it is that simple.'"
I agree. He doesn't have a 'rugby brain'. He doesn't see opportunities as they arise the same way Piggy did.
A great athlete, tough as nails but not smart enough and I don't think he even has the technical quality to make the most of opportunities even if we were smart enough to see them.
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| Totally agree With the pair of you.
Furthermore the game has changed and is adapting, positions are now played differently to what they were 15/20 years ago.
For me key positions such as a 6,9,1,13 have all adapted due to the structures of the team in attack.
The FB in attack now is very much like an old school 6 for example as a second receiver, the 6 is the same as a 7 just on the opposite side of the pitch.
Sometimes I don't even know if people are picking up on this.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Totally agree With the pair of you.
Furthermore the game has changed and is adapting, positions are now played differently to what they were 15/20 years ago.
For me key positions such as a 6,9,1,13 have all adapted due to the structures of the team in attack.
The FB in attack now is very much like an old school 6 for example as a second receiver, the 6 is the same as a 7 just on the opposite side of the pitch.
[uSometimes I don't even know if people are picking up on this.[/u'"
They aren't picking up on it. People are saying that Sam should be at stand off and what they are missing is, he actually is but unlike a traditional stand off he's hiding at the back in defence so he doesn't get targeted. 13 is another position that seems to be changing, over in Aus at least, and they're almost becoming the tackling machine prop forward like they used to be pre Hanley. Ian Potter anyone??
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| Quote ="Pemps"They aren't picking up on it. People are saying that Sam should be at stand off and what they are missing is, he actually is but unlike a traditional stand off he's hiding at the back in defence so he doesn't get targeted. =#FF000013 is another position that seems to be changing, over in Aus at least, and they're almost becoming the tackling machine prop forward like they used to be pre Hanley. Ian Potter anyone??'"
That's a real shame to see IMO. There's a big enough lack of ball playing backrowers as it is. I know Paul Gallen's the current poster child for this "new breed" of 13, but I'm not a fan of it. Give me a ball playing quick footed loose forward over a battering ram any day. The games to one dimensional for some as it is.
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| Quote ="LovesToSpooge"That's a real shame to see IMO. There's a big enough lack of ball playing backrowers as it is. I know Paul Gallen's the current poster child for this "new breed" of 13, but I'm not a fan of it. Give me a ball playing quick footed loose forward over a battering ram any day. The games to one dimensional for some as it is.'"
It's not just over there though. look at Harrison at Wire & Langley at Bradford.
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| Quote ="jonh"We have different perceptions of a perfect hooker that is all I can say. A perfect hooker sets up positions for plays and guides the team round the field.
I genuinely do not think it is any coincidence 90% of the time he comes on the field we seem to lose all momentum. I don't have the stats to back it up, but I would bet we score considerably less and concede more when he is on the field.
I think it is vital to look at the bigger picture not just him in isolation. Watch the team when he comes on rather than him.
I 100% appreciate his endeavour and application but I think he is very limited in relation to game/ruck skills and smarts.'"
thats what Tommy does....leads the team roung the field, but MM brings something different, (not better....diferent).
its not like we dont have any other leaders?
too many chiefs????
as long as he gives good service to the first reciever, albeit Deacs, or Brett, we are fine.......and dont forget we have Sam popping up at dummy half when he spots something on.
anyone else notice Sam shoving 2 would be dummy halves out of the way when he ran up to take the ball and scoot over from 70 yds??
another question........"would Sam be good at switching to 9 for short spells?"
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| Quote ="Pemps"It's not just over there though. look at Harrison at Wire & Langley at Bradford.'"
I think it's due to the game not producing the likes of Farrel, Sculthorpe and Lockers anymore. It's far more beneficial to have someone with those range of skills playing 13 than it is to have the likes of Harrison or Langley. What's puzzling is that even in Australia with their huge pool of talent, they to don't produce the quality 13's that they used to.
The days of quality players possessing the ability to switch between 6 and 13 look to be over. Even though many on here hate to see Lockers play 6, every time he has done under Madge he's been superb. It was when playing stand off in Noble's Wigan that Lockers struggled.
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| Why have Sam do it when Logan could?
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| Quote ="P-J"Why have Sam do it when Logan could?'"
Because Logan isnt that good. I dont think Sam should do it either, let him continue to do what he is doing, going to dummy half when he knows the defence is on the back foot and there are gaps. This is far more effective than being at dummy half for set spells.
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| Quote ="LovesToSpooge"That's a real shame to see IMO. There's a big enough lack of ball playing backrowers as it is. I know Paul Gallen's the current poster child for this "new breed" of 13, but I'm not a fan of it. Give me a ball playing quick footed loose forward over a battering ram any day. The games to one dimensional for some as it is.'"
Look at the name 'loose forward' it's not fixed into a set position it is position which is versatile to suit the needs of the team. Even the positional play of a 13 can be adapted and changed to benefit the team.
Hanley was a 'ball playing 13' excellent idea, allows the team to play with the 6 as a second receiver off the 7, with the 13 standing at the other side of the play the ball allowing split halves.
Dallas Johnson is a tackle machine 13, again excellent idea, takes a unique player who can practically do 80mins tacking everything that moves, pin-pointing where the opposition are attacking and helping out anywhere on the pitch, excellent if your team needs than extra help in defense. Again requires a smart player who can read the game defensively and fix the issue.
Paul Gallen is outstanding, like many teams Cronulla like to operate with 3 props on at one time, the strike on the other team therefore is more damaging and stronger down the centre. Gallen is that impressive he can do this for 60-80 mins, he has got hands and tackles up very well. A player with such a combo of attributes is very VERY valuable to their team.
Ideally you would like to find that player who can cover most of said areas, personally I think we have in Lockers, a player I highly rate.
Can he be a ball playing 13? Yes. Played in the halves, carried us around the park against Hudds earlier this season-was excellent.
Can he tackle like Dallas Johnson? Yes. Outstanding defensively, our teams top tackler? perhaps. And always plays big mins.
Does he take the ball in like a prop? No, HOWEVER always puts in the hard yards and takes the ball in as good as the best.
Looking at changing positions personally I think James Graham would makes an excellent 13. Good hands excellent work rate and takes the ball up time and time again, closest thing we have to Gallen, similar to how on occasion Sam Burgess has played 13 for the rabbits.
Back to McM, I believe he could be a defensive 13, good work rate and can tackle up, a hooker, he is not.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Look at the name 'loose forward' it's not fixed into a set position it is position which is versatile to suit the needs of the team. Even the positional play of a 13 can be adapted and changed to benefit the team.
Hanley was a 'ball playing 13' excellent idea, allows the team to play with the 6 as a second receiver off the 7, with the 13 standing at the other side of the play the ball allowing split halves.
Dallas Johnson is a tackle machine 13, again excellent idea, takes a unique player who can practically do 80mins tacking everything that moves, pin-pointing where the opposition are attacking and helping out anywhere on the pitch, excellent if your team needs than extra help in defense. Again requires a smart player who can read the game defensively and fix the issue.
Paul Gallen is outstanding, like many teams Cronulla like to operate with 3 props on at one time, the strike on the other team therefore is more damaging and stronger down the centre. Gallen is that impressive he can do this for 60-80 mins, he has got hands and tackles up very well. A player with such a combo of attributes is very VERY valuable to their team.
Ideally you would like to find that player who can cover most of said areas, personally I think we have in Lockers, a player I highly rate.
Can he be a ball playing 13? Yes. Played in the halves, carried us around the park against Hudds earlier this season-was excellent.
Can he tackle like Dallas Johnson? Yes. Outstanding defensively, our teams top tackler? perhaps. And always plays big mins.
Does he take the ball in like a prop? No, HOWEVER always puts in the hard yards and takes the ball in as good as the best.
Looking at changing positions personally I think James Graham would makes an excellent 13. Good hands excellent work rate and takes the ball up time and time again, closest thing we have to Gallen, similar to how on occasion Sam Burgess has played 13 for the rabbits.
Back to McM, I believe he could be a defensive 13, good work rate and can tackle up, a hooker, he is not.'"
Agreed on everything until the last 5 words.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Look at the name 'loose forward' it's not fixed into a set position it is position which is versatile to suit the needs of the team. Even the positional play of a 13 can be adapted and changed to benefit the team.
Hanley was a 'ball playing 13' excellent idea, allows the team to play with the 6 as a second receiver off the 7, with the 13 standing at the other side of the play the ball allowing split halves.
Dallas Johnson is a tackle machine 13, again excellent idea, takes a unique player who can practically do 80mins tacking everything that moves, pin-pointing where the opposition are attacking and helping out anywhere on the pitch, excellent if your team needs than extra help in defense. Again requires a smart player who can read the game defensively and fix the issue.
Paul Gallen is outstanding, like many teams Cronulla like to operate with 3 props on at one time, the strike on the other team therefore is more damaging and stronger down the centre. Gallen is that impressive he can do this for 60-80 mins, he has got hands and tackles up very well. A player with such a combo of attributes is very VERY valuable to their team.
Ideally you would like to find that player who can cover most of said areas, personally I think we have in Lockers, a player I highly rate.
Can he be a ball playing 13? Yes. Played in the halves, carried us around the park against Hudds earlier this season-was excellent.
Can he tackle like Dallas Johnson? Yes. Outstanding defensively, our teams top tackler? perhaps. And always plays big mins.
Does he take the ball in like a prop? No, HOWEVER always puts in the hard yards and takes the ball in as good as the best.
Looking at changing positions personally I think James Graham would makes an excellent 13. Good hands excellent work rate and takes the ball up time and time again, closest thing we have to Gallen, similar to how on occasion Sam Burgess has played 13 for the rabbits.
Back to McM, I believe he could be a defensive 13, good work rate and can tackle up, a hooker, he is not.'"
Excellent post.
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| Quote ="Pemps"It's not just over there though. look at Harrison at Wire & Langley at Bradford.'"
What, average loose forwards?
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| Quote ="Vectrabeast"What, average loose forwards?
'"
Absolutely
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| the problem with the obsession with loose forwards is that most of us have been spoiled by watching Ellery and Faz grace the 13 shirt for years.
the only thing close i can think of is Scully.
Lockers isnt any of those 3, but hes a close 4th
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| Quote ="wigan pie man"
another question........"would Sam be good at switching to 9 for short spells?"'"
Well, he's scored a couple of half-decent tries scooting from DH recently...upsetting Rogues, no doubt.
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| Didn't we score our tries today when Mickey Mac was on the pitch?
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| Any injury update on MM?
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| He had a dead arm. Came back on though IIRC?
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| He came back on towards the end, I think they said it was a dead arm.
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| Credit where its due. He was much improved today. We didn't have that 'dip' while he was on the field.
His defence was brutal as always but his distribution was superb IMO. He was unlucky not to get a few pens for running at markers not stood square.
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| Quote ="Odemwingie"Credit where its due. He was much improved today. We didn't have that 'dip' while he was on the field.
His defence was brutal as always but his distribution was superb IMO. He was unlucky not to get a few pens for running at markers not stood square.'"
Yep, it was the perfect game for him. A defence based game where special moments of attack were very limited because of the high standards of defence.
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| Quote ="The Ginger Pearl"Yep, it was the perfect game for him. A defence based game where special moments of attack were very limited because of the high standards of defence.'"
I said the same to Odemwingie before the game, he suits a defence orientated game and then there is no dip.
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