Leuluai and Smith have totally different strengths. There are some things Tommy is doing to a far higher level then Smith could manage but by the same token I think Smith was better in some other areas (clearly kicking out of hand being one and we do miss that from deep).

The time was right for Smith to move on IMO and nothing has changed my mind so far. His confidence was shot at points last year and he never really recovered. His form for us hadn't been great for 3 seasons and it just felt right for both parties.

Wow I can't believe this thread exists.

Is it April 1st?
Last season and to a lesser degree the season before we were truely atrocious to watch and Smith was a major player in our "style".
I'm still unsure what we played but it wasn't rugby league.
We got more entertainment in the second half against Hull than we did for the whole of last season at home.
Where I would agree is that TL kicking out of hand isn't great and personally I would have kicking for position on the majority of occasions.
He may well come back to harm us on GF but TL for Smith was an absolute no brainer for me.

Unbelievable! Matty Smith lacks skill. He never takes the line on, his passing accuracy is awful, he's slower than my Mum, Williams had to do far too much because of Smiths ineffective play.
This season we have been far more fluent in attack because of Tommy. He is dictating all that we do, freeing Williams up to wreak havoc.
Tommy wasn't great on Friday but it was the defence down Gelling's flank that got ripped apart. Not because of Tommy who missed a tackle but regardless is far better than Smith ever was or ever will be!

I agree with this. For me Matty Smith was a 'crap weather' performer, even then I have only seen him put in two superb performances ever! One for Wigan (Hull FC Wembley Final) and England's Test Match vs New Zealand at the DW a couple of years back. Both of these games were played during downpours and the pitches were heavy.

I never saw him break a defensive line, a show & go and hit the gap. Never.

Nevertheless he comes across as a really decent guy, was impressed at the time he spent consoling Wire players at the end of last years Grand Final.

On Friday we played like we did for most of last season. What's the commonality between the two? Missing our best second rowers and most of our 3/4's. We'll be reet soon enough.

Fair enough. I was meaning the Business end, as I think you know.

Was attempting to start a discussion about whether people are happy with TL. For me, regardless of what Smith did or didn't do, TL needs to improve his kicking (which at his age isn't going to happen). And just one try assist from six games isn't too hot either.

If you'd prefer not to bother - then don't.

They are different players.
Tommy has already made 12 tackle busts this season, Smith only made 13 in a full season.
Smith made 2 errors in his one game for Saints Tommy has made 3 so far.
Tommy has already made 98 tackles and missed 7, Smith last season made 470 but missed 60. In sinple terms Smith misses almost twice as many tackles as Tommy.
Smith managed to run for 4 metres for Saints on Friday!!

The point I am making is that they are totally different players, and I think it's no coincidence that Wigans attack and defence has looked better since Tommy came back. I do share your concerns about the kicking game though.

Maybe but business end of the season is bigger games which Cronulla in WCC was.

As you probably read there isnt much backing for Smith or regret that he has been moved on.

TL as never had a good kicking game and doubt he was brought in just for that.....so I would look at Wane and recruitment if this does end up costing us.

Assists for a scrum half are not everything if we was scoring the majority of our tries around the width of the posts I would expect his assists to be a lot higher. However if you look at our tries this year they have been in corners or down the flanks so the assist will be by the centre / second row or Williams. This is also the reason why Escare successful kicking % this year as been around 60

The assist is an unfair stat IMO. Just because the centre makes the last pass they get the credit but the real damage may have been done by another player in the middle of the field.

Our attack this season has been far more slick than in previous years but we have consistently (for years) scored more tries out wide due to our attacking structure.

Indeed. Recruitment seems to be a committee affair between Wane, Radlinski and Lenegan.

We have always scored a lot out wide so the kicking stats are comparable. Smith was 75% last year (Richards was 75% in 2013), Escare is 60% this year so far.

George plays on the left, Tommy on the right. George has eight assists, Tommy one.

I was just gonna ask about this actually, as we are playing you on Friday I was wondereing how your halves were going as I havent seen much of you this year.
I didnt think you would go too well this year as I didnt see either Williams or Leuluai (or Tomkins) as dominant halves who could run a game or get you around the field.
So I was surprised when you started so well, especially beating Cronulla.

Who has been doing the job of a dominant half and running the games for you? Williams or Leuluai?

I wouldn't describe either as dominant to be honest. Tommy is taking responsibility for guiding us round the park more and freeing Williams up to play more freely and off the cuff more. He's playing outstandingly well and wreaking havoc at times.

You think youll win Friday?
Im not sure myself but if we play well and rip in I think we could win by 8

Tommy, frees williams up to go play off the cuff rugby when it suits

Have to say i admired Smith for everything in particular he did last season and i cant help but think Saints will be a threat with him over there

I'd say it's quite unfair to be branding Tommy as unorganised but saying we're playing better because of George. The only reason George has the freedom to play is because Tommy is taking control, doing the basics and giving George the opportunity to play like he can.

I also think it's quite unfair to judge Escare's kicking against Matty's based on a few games. Not sure of the statistics but I'm sure Smith didn't start out with a great rate, but he improved... like Escare hopefully will.

Saying that, Matty was great for Wigan and it wasn't good to see him go.

We started the season well with just Sam Tomkins, McIllorum and Manfridi out. We looked slick and well organised. 6 weeks in and v Hull we were missing Tomkins, Manfredi, Gildart, Burgess, Tierney, McIllorum, Sutton, Barmteman, Farrell and O'Loughlin and clearly we weren't as good as previous weeks. That said, it's no excuse and we're we're very close to beating a strong Hull FC.
Will we win on Friday? Not sure to be honest. Leeds hitting some form and won 3 on the bounce. They were always going to be much improved on last year but we may have Farrell, Sutton and Gildart back which will certainly help. I suspect your back line may just give you the edge but I reckon it'll be a very close game.

Exactly my point so is why I said cant really compare stats for assists between Smith / Tommy / Williams

We have always been better attacking from right to left its how Pat Richards scored so many tries. George assists this year have been kicks because at present it seems he kicks behind the line or attacks line himself.

Yes, I'd agree with almost everything you say mate. I have always liked Tommy as a player, but I think that the people who bagged Matty last year are blind to Tommy's deficiencies.

I think Matty's place kicking was average at best. I do think that the love-in for Morgan is partly down to the fact that he has exceeded expectations wildly. However his kicking from the tee is poor, not even average which was all that Matty was. Definitely room for improvement, which I hope he does, because it looks like he will be getting a lot of practice.

I agree although I have no issue comparing position for position. Tommy and Matty are both scrum half playing in basically the same structure. I was one of those happy to see Smith go and be replaced by Tommy. Smith tried hard but beyond that lacked ability. He's slow, has poor passing accuracy, never takes the line on, he's predictable, got dragged in defensively, and the majority of his long licks went straight to a winger or full back.
Tommy is different player altogether. He passes better, he's quicker, runs better, takes the line on and he's really guiding us around the park. His defence is far superior to Smith's and it's no coincidence our attack is much slicker this season. Tommy is controlling games and freeing up Williams to play what he sees and cause havoc.
I wouldn't swap Tommy for Smith even in my worst nightmare!

Not really true when Josh was scoring tries for fun out on the right in 2011-2013.