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| Quote ="Itchy Arsenal"No it’s not.
It’s based on which team can play better overall than their opponents.
So for quick play the balls and no finesse he gets a multi hundred thousand pound contract. Overrated and passed on by Huddersfield and Wire. That’s how much they appreciated him.
I assume when the nrl increase their teams in their competition that they will be knocking King’s door down to sign him up. Behave.
King can’t even be mentioned in the same sentence as Wardle.
He’s an average athlete that can’t be described as a centre.'" No one is mentioning King in the same sentence as Wardle... Now Keighran is another matter.....King played far better for us than what's being served up now. He was alot more dangerous in attack and made plenty meters etc
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| Quote ="jonh"My issue is with the fatigue management.
Ellis is a great player, but he is clearly struggling.
We send Eseh on loan and play Hill in the reserves.
Mago and Byrne played limited minutes…yet we one again batter out middles and give them 2 hardly any minutes.
If that chase by Keighran is him in full flight it’s a concern, if he’s carrying a knock why the hell does he start when we have Eckersley on the bench.
Some whoppers can have a pop at the ref.
This situation though is fully of our own making in my option with very poor use of the squad we have available.'"
We monitor our players scientifically so we know how fatigued they are. Sooner or later our schedule was bound to catch up with us, it did today. In my view, and I know it is easy to be clever after the event, we should have rested the likes of Thompson, Havard, Farrell and Ellis. We need those four firing on all cylinders when it matters. Dupree, Eseh, Chan and Hill should have been in our 17 along with Byrne and Mago who have both played limited minutes.
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| Quote ="moto748"Brisbane were pretty good in Briers' early days there. But they've lost good players (Herbie, Tommy Deardon), have a weaker squad now, and a lot of injuries, and they're struggling.'"
Wigan were pretty good in TL and Lockers early days here, but we've lost good players (French, O'Neil etc) and are struggling. Your point is?
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| So Phuzzy…about our attacks. It’s amazing what happens when a team defends properly against you
Sorry couldn’t resist- was an open goal after what we have been discussing. I was at Wembley yesterday so couldn’t believe it when I saw the result.
Smith should cop a ban now which makes next week more interesting. The MRP on Monday is going to be very interesting for both sides. If it goes as expected there’ll be 0/4 first choice halfbacks for both sides and only 2/8 spine players. Saw that on Twitter and it’s a mad stat.
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| Quote ="JIMMY MAGNETS"No one is mentioning King in the same sentence as Wardle... Now Keighran is another matter.....King played far better for us than what's being served up now. He was alot more dangerous in attack and made plenty meters etc'"
Wardle is a centre and King isn’t.
Wardle has pace, good footwork, calmness under pressure and a great passing game. King can trundle it in. I mention Wardle because he is what I consider a centre, a top centre.
If we had signed King which player(s) would we have not signed(over and above Keighran) or been unable to improve their terms?
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| Quote ="Itchy Arsenal"Wardle is a centre and King isn’t.
Wardle has pace, good footwork, calmness under pressure and a great passing game. King can trundle it in. I mention Wardle because he is what I consider a centre, a top centre.
If we had signed King which player(s) would we have not signed(over and above Keighran) or been unable to improve their terms?'"
Some might say (with hindsight) that Chan and Hampshire have not exactly been money well spent this year but it's irrelevant anyway as King was under contract with Warrington.
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| Quote ="Zig"We monitor our players scientifically so we know how fatigued they are. Sooner or later our schedule was bound to catch up with us, it did today. In my view, and I know it is easy to be clever after the event, we should have rested the likes of Thompson, Havard, Farrell and Ellis. We need those four firing on all cylinders when it matters. Dupree, Eseh, Chan and Hill should have been in our 17 along with Byrne and Mago who have both played limited minutes.'"
Peet obviously doesn’t think that Eseh and Chan are ready and possibly may never be ready. Hill looks really slow this season and maybe it’s just a case of a second year performance after a very encouraging first season. Mago is just Mago. Seemingly incapable of playing for periods longer than 15 minutes and doesn’t appear to be any fitter nearly 3 years after joining us. His main attribute of off loading has almost disappeared and his deficiencies in defence are still there. Byrne is an enigma. Giant of a man but his main attribute is his defensive work with very little impact with ball in hand.
Depth of the squad was our mantra from the very outset this season with a few already saying that we don’t need any new blood in the squad for next season. The last few weeks would suggest that maybe the strength in depth from a qualitative perspective is just a fallacy. Of the new signings for 2024 only Thompson has looked like a really good acquisition. I still have high hopes for Walters, Eseh and Hill but maybe for the longer term rather than here and now.
I hope that Peet can steady the ship and get the season back on track. He gets the vast majority of calls correct so for me we have to accept that occasionally he will get it wrong but hopefully he and the team will learn from it.
Smith will probably gain from the rest that his suspension will bring and it will be interesting to see how young Farrimond will cope with the additional responsibilities.
Will be interesting to see how we react next weekend.
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| I will wade in here. I was gutted when King left and since watching Keighran i am even more gutted. Hope we can get him back somehow. Miski was 100 times better with King too.
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| Quote ="Stu M"So Phuzzy…about our attacks. It’s amazing what happens when a team defends properly against you
Sorry couldn’t resist- was an open goal after what we have been discussing. I was at Wembley yesterday so couldn’t believe it when I saw the result.
Smith should cop a ban now which makes next week more interesting. The MRP on Monday is going to be very interesting for both sides. If it goes as expected there’ll be 0/4 first choice halfbacks for both sides and only 2/8 spine players. Saw that on Twitter and it’s a mad stat.'"
We were awful Stu but I hardly think it was an "open goal", as you put it. You can't take 1 game and say it proves something about another. That's like saying the away defeat against Hull KR proved we couldn't win in the CC semi just a couple weeks later. Saints attack has been awful for a couple of seasons. Wigan's hasn't. It's all very admirable Matt Peet taking a "no excuses" approach but anyone thinking 3 games in 10 days at the back end of a long season didn't have a major impact on that performance needs to have their bumps felt. We were already in a dip of form prior to it so it doesn't take a genius to work out that it isn't exactly going to help matters!
Next week you start favourites for mine. I was already of that opinion anyway as we're all aware of the quality of performance we get the week after Easter (which is essentially what Wigan have just had) and yesterday's performance confirmed it. We have fallen off a cliff and the loss of Smith's kicking game will mean we can't even play behind that. Put it this way; if you don't even take your chance this weekend, I doubt we'll have much to fear come the playoffs!
Talking of which, I think we'll be back on song come October. Are you bold enough to disagree?
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"We were awful Stu but I hardly think it was an "open goal", as you put it. You can't take 1 game and say it proves something about another. That's like saying the away defeat against Hull KR proved we couldn't win in the CC semi just a couple weeks later. Saints attack has been awful for a couple of seasons. Wigan's hasn't. It's all very admirable Matt Peet taking a "no excuses" approach but anyone thinking 3 games in 10 days at the back end of a long season didn't have a major impact on that performance needs to have their bumps felt. We were already in a dip of form prior to it so it doesn't take a genius to work out that it isn't exactly going to help matters!
Next week you start favourites for mine. I was already of that opinion anyway as we're all aware of the quality of performance we get the week after Easter (which is essentially what Wigan have just had) and yesterday's performance confirmed it. We have fallen off a cliff and the loss of Smith's kicking game will mean we can't even play behind that. Put it this way; if you don't take your chance this weekend, I doubt we'll have much to fear come the playoffs!
Talking of which, I think we'll be back on song come October. Are you bold enough to disagree?
'"
Not sure how you work out we will start as favourites? I bet the bookies won’t have us as favourites- pardon the pun
We’ll have Welsby, Lomax, Dodd, Knowles and Batchelor out. Matautia is a chance I believe and that’s not even including Hurrell and Delaney
Also we keep being told that Wigan have the best squad in the comp. You signed about 10 props for a start. It’s on Peet for not rotating better. Farrimond was soon back to the Reserves after a couple of cameos but will now no doubt play next week.
It’s interesting how much Wigan fans argue against the one man team jibe yet they’ve lost 3 from 5 with no French and arguably only beat us because of the sheer number we had out.
We are 2 from 2 with no Welsby (I accept one was Hull)
And yes if I had to bet on a team winning the GF to save my life I’d still bet on Wigan but they’ve got to get back to form quickly and keep French fit
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| Quote ="Stu M"Not sure how you work out we will start as favourites? I bet the bookies won’t have us as favourites- pardon the pun
We’ll have Welsby, Lomax, Dodd, Knowles and Batchelor out. Matautia is a chance I believe and that’s not even including Hurrell and Delaney
Also we keep being told that Wigan have the best squad in the comp. You signed about 10 props for a start. It’s on Peet for not rotating better. Farrimond was soon back to the Reserves after a couple of cameos but will now no doubt play next week.
It’s interesting how much Wigan fans argue against the one man team jibe yet they’ve lost 3 from 5 with no French and arguably only beat us because of the sheer number we had out.
We are 2 from 2 with no Welsby (I accept one was Hull)
And yes if I had to bet on a team winning the GF to save my life I’d still bet on Wigan but they’ve got to get back to form quickly and keep French fit'"
The reason I think that is not because of who the respective teams have out (which is similar anyway) but because Wigan are gassed and Saints aren't. Think back to your post WCC victory form. The bookies had Saints favourites for most of those games but anyone with a pair of eyes could see you were gassed. It's been remarkable that we've not had a dip before now but it had to come sooner or later. This latest run has pretty much finished the job.
French is important to us. Of course he is. It would be daft to suggest otherwise. But to say this latest run proves anything more is just more conflating. We've won plenty without him too. Did that prove he was irrelevant? The truth, as ever, lies somewhere between. We miss him when he's not there as any team would but to somehow conflate that into being a one man team is nonsense. We're better with him as any team is better with their best players playing. It's a team sport though, and no player is a team. Not French, not Welsby, not Mikey Lewis. However, they do of course make a difference.
You're right on squad rotation and I think Matty Peet needs to hold his hand up here. We've flogged Thompson, Harvard (since his return), Farrell, Nsemba (taking his age into account), Ellis, Smith, Wardle, Marshall and Miski. I could show you a text to my mate complaining of this from several weeks ago. We're reaping the effects of this now. So much so I would advocate wholesale changes for a couple of weeks even if it means losses. Put the LLS to bed, otherwise we risk having a proper crack at the big one.
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| I'll be interested to see how Leigh go later because the energy levels yesterday just weren't there for us.
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"The reason I think that is not because of who the respective teams have out (which is similar anyway) but because Wigan are gassed and Saints aren't. Think back to your post WCC victory form. The bookies had Saints favourites for most of those games but anyone with a pair of eyes could see you were gassed. It's been remarkable that we've not had a dip before now but it had to come sooner or later. This latest run has pretty much finished the job.
French is important to us. Of course he is. It would be daft to suggest otherwise. But to say this latest run proves anything more is just more conflating. We've won plenty without him too. Did that prove he was irrelevant? The truth, as ever, lies somewhere between. We miss him when he's not there as any team would but to somehow conflate that into being a one man team is nonsense. We're better with him as any team is better with their best players playing. It's a team sport though, and no player is a team. Not French, not Welsby, not Mikey Lewis. However, they do of course make a difference.
You're right on squad rotation and I think Matty Peet needs to hold his hand up here. We've flogged Thompson, Harvard (since his return), Farrell, Nsemba (taking his age into account), Ellis, Smith, Wardle, Marshall and Miski. I could show you a text to my mate complaining of this from several weeks ago. We're reaping the effects of this now. So much so I would advocate wholesale changes for a couple of weeks even if it means losses. Put the LLS to bed, otherwise we risk having a proper crack at the big one.'"
Fully appreciate the games you’ve played and yes I expected a drop post WCC which to give you credit didn’t really happen. Maybe this is the dip
However in mitigation to the points you make about next week, our pack has been flogged. Due to the number of injuries we’ve had Clark, Lees and Sironen have been playing 80 mins every week more or less so there’s some fatigue to consider there too.
Delaney played busted which resulted in a reoccurrence of his knee and Stephens has played way more games than envisaged at just 19
It’s hardly like we are fresh as daisies going into next week and I’m also not sure you’re missing 6 of your first choice 17. That’s 7 if Matautia doesn’t make it and that’s not including Wingfield and Delaney who would be first replacements
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| Quote ="Stu M"Fully appreciate the games you’ve played and yes I expected a drop post WCC which to give you credit didn’t really happen. Maybe this is the dip
However in mitigation to the points you make about next week, our pack has been flogged. Due to the number of injuries we’ve had Clark, Lees and Sironen have been playing 80 mins every week more or less so there’s some fatigue to consider there too.
Delaney played busted which resulted in a reoccurrence of his knee and Stephens has played way more games than envisaged at just 19
It’s hardly like we are fresh as daisies going into next week and I’m also not sure you’re missing 6 of your first choice 17. That’s 7 if Matautia doesn’t make it and that’s not including Wingfield and Delaney who would be first replacements'"
I accept that Stu and, if you'd also just played 3 games in 10 days I'd put us back as favourites. Wellens has definitely flogged players too. Both coaches need to be better at rotating players and trusting their squads.
We'd argue all day about what constitutes a first team player for Saints Stu as I don't actually think anyone knows what your first choice is! Lomax and Dodd have both been awful this year. Hurrell is an unfit liability and you have a tendency to count several back towers, who can't all play at the same time, as first choice players. Then we have the perennial Ritson/Bennison argument and whether Mbye is better at 9 (he isn't) or in the halves (he is) anyway. Also should he play there before either of Dodd or Lomax (he should).
I don't think Hurrell, Lomax and Dodd are big misses for you currently and their replacements are doing better for you. Yes, technically they're absentees, but not in the same way as a French, O'Neil or Smith is for us.
Matautia, Knowles (if banned) and Welsby are big misses. Everyone else is a Cooper for us. It would be nice to have him back and would be in and around the 17 but that's all. In fact, given what we've just been saying about prop rotation I would argue that Cooper and Isa would probably make this week's starting team if they were available and would make us better. Could you honestly say the same about Dodd, Hurrell or Lomax?
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"I accept that Stu and, if you'd also just played 3 games in 10 days I'd put us back as favourites. Wellens has definitely flogged players too. Both coaches need to be better at rotating players and trusting their squads.
We'd argue all day about what constitutes a first team player for Saints Stu as I don't actually think anyone knows what your first choice is!
Lomax and Dodd have both been awful this year. Hurrell is an unfit liability and you have a tendency to count several back towers, who can't all play at the same time, as first choice players. Then we have the perennial Ritson/Bennison argument and whether Mbye is better at 9 (he isn't) or in the halves (he is) anyway. Also should he play there before either of Dodd or Lomax (he should).
I don't think Hurrell, Lomax and Dodd are big misses for you currently and their replacements are doing better for you. Yes, technically they're absentees, but not in the same way as a French, O'Neil or Smith is for us.
Matautia, Knowles (if banned) and Welsby are big misses. Everyone else is a Cooper for us. It would be nice to have him back and would be in and around the 17 but that's all. In fact, given what we've just been saying about prop rotation I would argue that Cooper and Isa would probably make this week's starting team if they were available and would make us better. Could you honestly say the same about Dodd, Hurrell or Lomax?'"
I’m the first to say Lomax has been poor this season but as club captain he’s definitely first choice and there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t suddenly have a great game
Hurrell is poor defensively but offers a lot in attack particularly close to the line.
Also you’ve missed out Batchelor who may be banned and he definitely makes a first choice 17 irrespective of his relatively poor performances earlier in the season
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| NB to be fair I’d forgotten about O Neill who is a big miss and a quality player
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| Sironen could be in trouble for a shoulder charge on Hankinson just before Mbye tackled Cross , when Cross should really have scored . Great work from Mbye though
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| Quote ="Brick with eyes"Sironen could be in trouble for a shoulder charge on Hankinson just before Mbye tackled Cross , when Cross should really have scored . Great work from Mbye though'"
I think tomorrow will be a lottery. There’s an argument to say that Bell could be in trouble too for a high shot and I’ve seen Wigan fans on Twitter saying Nsemba may be in trouble.
We’ll know a lot more after tomorrow.
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| Quote ="Stu M"I’m the first to say Lomax has been poor this season but as club captain he’s definitely first choice and there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t suddenly have a great game
Hurrell is poor defensively but offers a lot in attack particularly close to the line.
Also you’ve missed out Batchelor who may be banned and he definitely makes a first choice 17 irrespective of his relatively poor performances earlier in the season'"
If Bachelor is banned I'll give you him but it's not cut and dried he will be. As I said, we'll argue all day about Lomax, Dodd and Hurrell. You can count them as misses but Dodd is already on a plane, Lomax is a shadow of what he was and Hurrell is great (in attack) when fit but he's clearly been on the burgers even before his injury. If he was playing we'd be running Wardle at him all day. Would you honestly expect a good outcome from that? I think your statement that there's no saying Lomax wouldn't suddenly have a great game sums it up better than ever I could. There's wishful thinking, then there's the reality of the situation.
You're currently better without all those players so you can technically call them misses but the reality is none of them would bring anything to your team. In fact both Hurrell and Dodd have not been picked even when available so first choice is a stretch regardless of availability.
Probably best we agree to disagree but I think our misses are on a par regardless of numbers. If Matautia or Bachelor plays then I think ours are more telling. I'm fact, if we're a one man team then French alone covers all of yours
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| Quote ="Stu M"I think tomorrow will be a lottery. There’s an argument to say that Bell could be in trouble too for a high shot and I’ve seen Wigan fans on Twitter saying Nsemba may be in trouble.
We’ll know a lot more after tomorrow.'"
Then there'll be the wildcard banning that no one saw coming...
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| Tbh I think a lot of people are underestimating the length of ban that Smith will get. If the panel deem it a deliberate elbow to the head of a prone player he could get 4 games plus.
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"Then there'll be the wildcard banning that no one saw coming...
'"
We’ve done this topic to death now but in fairness I think there’s very little in it in terms of quality v numbers and its splitting hairs in many ways as to which team is the most affected.
I think tomorrow’s MRP will be key and then the 21 man squad announcements on Thursday as there’s a few on each side undoubtedly busted.
The bookies are rarely wrong though and I think they’ll make Wigan slight favourites. My guess is Wigan -4
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| There’s a couple of Wigan fans suggesting that French may be back for next week but it would be foolish to throw him into a game that Wigan can afford to lose (local bragging rights apart)
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| Quote ="MadDogg"Tbh I think a lot of people are underestimating the length of ban that Smith will get. If the panel deem it a deliberate elbow to the head of a prone player he could get 4 games plus.'"
Does he actually make contact with the head? I don't know either way but I haven't seen any pics or video that show he did. If he did, then fair enough, but if there was no contact isn't it the same as the one on Field against Hull KR for which there was no ban at all?
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Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 5511 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Nov 2006 | 18 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
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| Quote ="Stu M"There’s a couple of Wigan fans suggesting that French may be back for next week but it would be foolish to throw him into a game that Wigan can afford to lose (local bragging rights apart)'"
Can't see it myself Stu but there have been whispers. If he's back then surely we win as the rest of the team is irrelevant
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