Meant to quote the full bit to be honest, it was meant to be a reply to the original point. Although your last sentence makes you look more of a smartass than anyone to be fair.

Your entitled to your opinion, just sick of certain people picking holes in 1 player as if that's the answer to all our problems!
I apologize if that's what you think about my quote but if the original post had been done correctly then maybe I wouldn't have misunderstood it!
The way it reads currently is that your the one having a dig at me????

That was never my intention mate honestly.

Hock can be a match winner but can be a coach killer, i rate him but would not be too sad to see him move away from the club as long as it was for a spell in the NRL.

The frustrating thing is we get the odd snap shot of how skillfull the players can be before we return to the usual dross, usually when we are chasing a game or play against a team that on the night was taylor made for our tactics, tactics we rarely if ever seem to change regardless of there success/failure or opposition.

If it was the odd player underperforming then i think you can point the finger at them, but if it is nearly a full team then you have to look at the coach in my opinion.

Still i fully expect us to beat Salford and everything will be rosey again and we will be the best things since sliced bread for a week, and the coach will get praised by the same people who slam the players for the losses/poor performance, something i always find interesting. Its the players fault when we lose by the coaches when we win/perform.

Re-read the post.

I never said I was surprised Lockers was top tackler. Therefore your assumption lead you to the wrong point.

Apologies! You said it was "Interesting"!

You also said that Hock was Patchy & That's why he's not as good as People rate him!

You then said "You Rate Him"? What is it??

Basically, He's a Wigan Player, End of!

Based on that would you pick him in your 17 Week in week out or Not???

I would have him as one of the 1st 3 names in the 17 EVERY WEEK!

roberts effort against hall for hall's second try was nothing short of disgraceful. donald was poor in his first year at leeds but not throught lack of effort. roborts for now looks like a bloke who has come for the pay day. time will tell im sure

Look back to 2006 when he played alongside Scott Logan. The player we miss is Logan. I am not making excuses for Fielden but he has to do far more since Logan left. Coley isn't a patch on Logan while O'Carroll and Prescott are learning the game and of course Feka is a pure impact prop.

Our pack in 2006 was much better than the one we have now. We have no players like Logan at prop or Fletcher in the 2nd row who are your typical hard nosed and clever Aussie pack members.

I think both Fielden at prop and Hock in the 2nd row suffer because of this. The pair of them have to do far more than they ought.

Dave

Couldn't agree more. Being outshone by a rookie every week.

Re: Hock

I do rate Hock, just not as highly as others. As well as recognising his skill and ability I can also see the stupidity in many of his choices, namely when and when not to offload.

I just think my 'cherry and white' tinted specs aren't as tinted as others...

Stu Fielden. People say he does too much work, he's suffering from not working with another good prop, what about when he drives the ball at the line? A good prop does a few things- Breaks the line and offloads or attracts several defenders then offloads.
Each time a good prop crashes into the line he wares down and tires defenders.

Fielden doesn't seem to do this.
Secondly, and I hate to say it, his aggression doesn't seem to be there.

I honestly thought we found it again in the second half of last season



His performances so far this season have been a lot better than those of 2007 and first half of 2008 but haven't been as good as the second half of 2008 and nowhere near as good as his Bratfut days

Good post and I thoroughly agree

We now have a good distributing hooker (IMO one reason that contributed to his inadequate form) so that should help his form

If we got another house prop to help him out that would take pressure off him (IMO another reason to his slacking form)

We just need to get his agression back and we are there

I was at the game on Friday - first live game in 5 years,

FWIW I'd say Hock could be the best British forward by some distance, if he could cut out the errors. Sadly this seems to have been the case for some time, since he is an immensely powerful runner.

I liked Ainscough - tough little guy, hard to stop. He will let in some tries against kicks due to his lack of height, but a good prospect.

Of the other English players I did like McIlorum (sp?) out of dummy half. TBH he was more impressive than Ridell. Fielden was virtually anonymous, which is a huge shame. I didn't really notice Sam Tomkins either, but he's got time on his side.

Overall I'd have to say that whilst the scoreline blew out, Wigan didn't deserve to be in them game due to an almost ridiculous error count in the first half. When you did get the ball in decent position I thought you looked quite dangerous. I'd have a look at the players themselves before blaming Noble for that - had you not dropped the ball so often it would have been a close game IMO.

the trouble is that we try to beat other teams in the forwards... when basically our forwards are not big enough , we should move the ball around the pitch and utilise our wingers more which would tire out the opposition and give our forwards a slight breather. where are our set plays and running from deep to hit the line at speed, this flat attacking game is utter rubbish then there is supporting the man with the ball... against leeds when we did put on 1 or 2 set moves ie using a dummy runner when hock went over the line produced good results. when we get close to the opposition try line we panic this is where set moves,runners,kicks would be very effective.
all the above should be put in place in training
also come on ... if plan A does not work go to plan B
the only trouble i can see with hock is he does not know when to pass the ball and when to keep hold of it.
leeds did not do anything special on friday except play simple rugby league our errors lost us most of the game

p.s. what does o`loughlin do as captain i never see him talking to the team when things are going wrong.

Just a question, but with Feka, Fielden and Hock on the field in the starting lineup, how is Wigan's pack too small? Not sure how big the sub forwards are.

Also, just to defend Roberts for a second, he was in the classic position of being almost static when the kick was put over, whereas Hall was running onto it.

Brisbane Rhino I agree with your comments and value the opinion of someone who can look at Wigan without the 'cherry and white' tinted specs.

Your comments were spot on for me. Fielden not having any impact on the field is more than evident.

The amount of excuses some Wigan fans come up with to justify poor play is inaccurate to say the least.

The amount of knock ons and lost ball was terrible, this is not the fault of Noble but the players. Wigan posed very little threat to Leeds with fans having high expectation after beating a poor Bradford team.

Fans hype each other up on here praising certain players 'overrating them' to the point were they begin to believe the hype. The there is shock and disgust when the team falls short.

This is not a slate on the team, but a reality check for the fans who have generated a false impression of certain players, the reaction of loss or victory is intensified by the fans hype before each game and about certain players.

Sam Tomkins is extremely hyped up on here, if a fan points this out others feel they are calling Sam, this is false, they are merely stating a realistic understand of were Sam is really up to. A great prospect but not yet a world beater.

The pack in total is big enough, just not good enough to steam roll other packs, no one is scared of the Wigan pack and rightly so.

No enforcer at all. 60min prop is average. Hooker needs game time before he's right, Loose forward who isn't a ball player or a capt. Hock who is good but produces many errors. Joel would benefit from playing as an out and out 13 being allowed to link up with his brother and Tommy in attack, not used as a tackle machine when Lockers or Hansen could be doing that.

Hansen is a good tackler, but lets be honest, no threat to the opposing team. O Carroll isn't bad, but not yet amazing. Prescott can't get into the team and Coley is below the standard we want.

Just being honest. Not putting them down, just calling it as it is. This reflects in results. The backs are sorted now. It the pack were we're failing.

I cannot recall any post claiming Sam is anything other than an exciting prospect with bags of potential, i have never seen him called a World Beater.

I think our hooker is showing signs of quality and improvement each week, never stood a chance in the Leeds game.

I agree with your assessment of Fielden, he has very little punch anymore, for whatever reason our team lacks power and athleticism, Fielden in particullar highlights this.

Lockers has shown his ability ball in hand on many occasions but needs the ball to do so, regards his captaincy skills every coach he has ever played under has chosen him to captain there team, expect for GB, so he must be doing something right.

Hock i think is over hyped and something i have been guilty of in the past, sadly again it is a reflection on the standards of our game in England that people can say he is world class, he is occasionally very very good but i seriously doubt he would be rated in the NRL, somewhere i hope he goes as i feel it is the only way he will improve. All the backrow forwards on display over the weekend offered more than Hock does 80% of the time.

Hansen is an odd one I think we have 1 too many grafters in the team which is why he is criticised a little but he is the one i would keep, and as has been highlighted he may not punch holes in defences but he knows his way to the line and runs good angles etc, that do trouble defences and generate quick play the balls.

People rate Sam Tomkins above his current play. Exciting prospect yes, no more at this stage, not even played a handful of games.

Lockers is a better second row than 13. Can tackle up as well as Hansen and is far better in attack, offers more of a presence and makes more breaks.
Which leads me to think, what is Hansen's place in the team? If we have Lockers as the good strong tackler who can attack partnering the explosive Hock with Joel at loose having the size and power to tackle all day long and the skill and flair to link up with the halves why do we need Hansen?

Obviously strength in numbers, if the tackle machine (I'd have Lockers) is injured he fills in well.. but having him as the next back up is at the expense of other plays in the reserves who simply could be better. Players who can tackle up and offer more in attack.

We have Flanny, Farrell and Mossop all in the wings waiting to step up and show what they can do.

Someone mentioned the back row consists of a strong runner, a tackle machine and a ball playing forward.
The front row needs to be aggresstive, strong and bruising, difficult to put down and intimidating. Two hard props and a 9 with good go forward linking with the halves and dictating the play around the park.

See:

2 hard running solid hitting props.
No.9 linking with the backs and ball playing 13 (remember the 'golden triangle'?)
6,7 to create overlaps/running plays using both 11,12 to link outwide with the centres 3,4 then onto the wingers 2,5
FB can be used many ways in attack, as a second centre to team up down one side of the field, as a 'deep' second 1st receiver standing deeper behind the 1st receiver (re:Oz used Billy Slater in this way in the WC)

Props can be worked any which way as long as they drive the line, overloads, making the hard yards intimidating the defense.
More support, 6/7 or 1 to run with the props for support for offloads, sick of seeing props looking for an offload when no ones in support.
Hock as a strong 'prop like runner' to help out the props with the drives.
Balance of speed on one wing and a 'quick step on the other, there is nothing wrong with Roberts dropping to FB as Pat moves over to the wing during the game to run a set cross field kick play.

Team for this..

Richards
Roberts/Pryce Bailey Caromont Ainscough (New centre perhaps for next season)
Tomkins Tommy
Fielden Riddell O Carroll (Like to see Fielden out 2 'nasty' enforcer props in)
Hock Lockers
Tomkins
-------------
Feka, Prescott, McClorum, Mossop/Flanny/Farrell

You really arent listening to what other people are saying are you?

People have already stated what they think of Hansen and have backed it up with facts yet you are still saying he is clueless in attack



As for Tomkins no one has called him a world beater, but can you blame us fans that we have a great prospect playing for Wigan who has the potential to be a world beater.

This thread is gettin ridiculous now, going round in circles.

And despite my comments you miss the one stat which is most important, the win to loss.

Take a look at it, we're 2 from 6. Consider this, let it help you identify there is a problem, then address it, just as I have.

Come on, surely you can see the problems with the lack of attracting impact certain players have.

World beater isn't a direct quote before you become pedantic. Just take a look at the Sam Tomkind thread.

I haven't looked at what people are 'telling me' on this thread? read the feedback, most agree.

Don't bother watching the game in future, obviously you take more notice of your little stats sheet the RL website.

P.S Do consider we've played more games than any of team before once again 'statting' up.

Exactly we have only played 6 games so far this season and these negative threads, slating every player only 6 games in arent going to make it any better are they.

Fair enough we maybe should of beat Wakey and Cas at home but Wakey are on good form so far this season and I also wasn't expecting us to beat Leeds or Hull away which we didnt. Going down to Harlequins and picking up 2 points is a good achievement considering we didnt play that well and they have just put 60 past Warrington.

The only reason stats have to be used, is because you are saying Hansen is cluless in attack, where stats otherwise show this is wrong.

I dont get where all this negativity has come from recently, even when we were down the bottom in 2006, there wasn't this much negativity and slating players at every opportunity.

Aslong as we make the playoffs at the end of the season, with our youngsters such as Tomkins, Ainscough, O'Carroll all playing regularly then I'll be happy.

Agreed

Can't believe people are doubting our back row. It is our strongest position and I feel we have good balance there and with Mossop and Farrell coming through it is only going to get stronger

Prop is an issue for us. I can't see Fielden going until the end of his contract although unless he regains some form I think he sould go along with Coley and we should look to bring 2 of Luke Bailey, LMS, Kylie Leuluai and Andy Lynch in but this isn't going to happen

Half back is yet to be resolved and I also think we need another centre to partner Roberts. If we get a decent one we will have a cracking backline with very exciting wingers

It's no negativity it's realism.

I'll all for Wigan (obviously and there progression) I can just see players for what they are and how we've performed this season.

It's not just to do with results but how we are playing which one game apart is poorly.



So you would be happy to make the playoff? What does that mean? In 8th place or 1st place? I expect no one thinks we have a remote chance of 1st or 2nd but if we finish lower in the league than we did last season we will have gone backwards for the third year running and that possibility is at the back of many people minds I think.

Dave

Sorry but you can see players for what you think are. At the end of the day it's all opinions and no ones matter more than any others on here.

There are many, many factors contributing to bad performances from the players to the coaches to even the fans. It would be foolish to try and blame one area as fully to blame.