Our record in SL this season when the captain doesn't play. Shocking but unsurprising.

No.1 priority to sort out in the off season.

And people thought we would fall apart without Gale

What has Luke Gale got to do with the original post? The Casforum is that way 》》》》 so tootle off back over there if you intention is to gloat. I have had enough listening to that four eyed whippet shagger Schofield all afternoon.

To be fair Wane did say SOL was a bigger loss, looks like he was right.

be seeing you.

It was always going to be the case because he's a better player.

Let cas gloat, it should really be their year and the team has earned it. If they fail to become champions no doubt they will give warmest congratulations to whoever beats them and show true humility. We on the other hand do not deserve to be in with a shout. Our performance today was woeful, we looked beaten at the kick off. One up rugby is boring to watch and just makes life easy for a decent defensive team. How many times, in the first half, did we assume that a tackle was complete and get caught facing the wrong way? Only the players who were actively part of the move were in motion so we had no options and did not put any doubt in the minds of the defenders. In defence two or three would start to slide leaving big gaps for the opposition to walk through.

No Lockers no pots

I would like to get in early with " It was all the refs fault" but it wasn't so I cannot.

As the saying goes, every dog has it's day.
No complacency from me though. Whoever finishes fourth has the potential to win the semi-final and the grand final.
We've had a very, very good season, but it would be remiss not to acknowledge that fourtune has been on our side too. We've won games we didn't deserve to and suffered very few injuries.
Winning the league by such a distance doesn't mean we'll win two one-off games. I'm pretty sure our players don't have the complacency of some of our supporters.

No need to stoop to Hull fans' level.

I said at the match that Lockers should have been the man of the match as he had more influence on that game by not playing than any of those that took the field. It seems that 17 pro players are unable to do even the basics without him there to guide them through the game. A frightening thought.

To me, this illustrates the frightening degree of mental weakness in the current Wigan team - which has got to be down to the the way they're trained and prepped for matches, plus an amazing lack of leadership ability among the senior players.

Yesterday ought to have been the final nail in the coffin for a number of people at Wigan. It's been a poor season all round, but the excuses about injuries etc no longer apply. We are simply not as good as we've been deluding ourselves into thinking we are. You can't dismiss the number of Cup finals Wigan have reached in recent years, but maybe that's down to the very average standards that we've seen in this competition generally. Yesterday, I felt we finally came up against a genuinely well organised, well-marshalled, well-coached team - a team who've moved the British game forward the way Wigan did in the late 80s - and we were comprehensively beaten, left behind with the uninspired stragglers.

I know it's not a simple thing to replace a coach. It's only worth doing if you can get someone better - and there is still no-one else in the UK who I think is significantly better than Shaun Wane, with the obvious exception of Daryl Powell (though I imagine he's now got a job for life at Cas). This means we have to go to Aus, and that won't be something that can be pulled off overnight.

In the mean time, there is a lot of dead wood in the Wigan side which we need to unload at the first opportunity, starting with: Joe Burgess, Tommy Leuluai, Michael McIlorum, Frank-Paul Nu'uausala and Joel Tomkins.

On top of that, players who I'd put on a kind of performance-related probation include: Sam Tomkins, George Williams, Anthony Gelling, Taulima Tautai, Tony Clubb and Sam Powell.

I'm afraid the Wigan class of 2017 really is that bad.

Hard to disagree with that Cruncher. And it speaks volumes about the game in the UK that this average team which is poorly coached can win the next 3 games and become champions???

We were so badly under-prepared yesterday. The writing was on the wall from the first set when Cas easily broke our line and went 80 metres. Is that the players fault though? Wane blamed a lot of "individuals" having poor games which is probably true but if most of the team had a poor game then you have to look towards the preparation and coaching?

I totally agree. But as I've said, replacing the coaching staff is something that can't happen as a kneejerk (and I doubt it will - the protracted but careful selection and appointment of Michael Maguire being a good example).

In terms of the players, the only ones who stood up and were counted yesterday were Tom Davis and John Bateman (as usual). Tommy L had a bit of a dig, but one good effort in a whole season is not enough - the guy's clearly finished.

There are even some who are NOT on my list of shame who I have reservations about. I fear that Oli Gildart is too small to play centre in the modern game, while for a 22-year-old, Ryan Sutton looks out of shape to me. I'm even worried about Faz's lack of stature, though that's only being exposed because we have a powder-puff front row.

I would also impose a moratorium on bringing back players who've left. I agree that this seemed like a good idea at the time, and a sensible appreciation of the new situation in the game (wherein British RL with its self-imposed restriction on spending power is bottom of the rugby world pecking-order), but it's mainly turned out to be a safety net for mercenaries. Players are basically saying that they want to go and have an adventure somewhere else (some quite ridiculously - Budgie, Joel and Josh spring to mind!) - but don't worry, they'll come back to Wigan if it all goes pear-shaped for them. Well, that's not good enough ... and on reflection, it's maybe no surprise that we keep getting our fingers burned by it. Even those who go to to Aus, who you'd expect to have improved, come back worse players - it's got to be a mindset thing; they're just not that bothered about playing for Wigan.

I know that extricating all these losers from the team sounds draconian, but I sincerely believe that yesterday spoke volumes about how we've been on the slide recently. 2017 has been an almost unrelieved tale of error-strewn performances, lack of organisation on the field and non-existent commitment from a bunch of men who get very well paid to wear a shirt that others would have put on simply for the honour of it. Hopefully, the club will now decide that enough is enough, and will view yesterday as a new low-watermark for the club. It really is time for action ... some of it pretty radical.

I agree with the majority of your points, Cruncher. The one I'd like to highlight is the mental strength (or rather lack thereof). It's bothered me for some time that we no longer seem to have a sports psychologist on the books - or if we do we need urgently to replace them with someone better. The catastrophic lack of urgency, grit and ability to complete the basic skills well in certain games has led to some dire performances this season even, or possibly especially, when we have had more or less our first choice side available. Yet on some occasions (e.g. the Saints game) that same side has looked really good. They have it in them, and presumably the coaching style doesn't vary dramatically from game to game. Yes, there's the quality of the opposition but Saints are no pushovers now that Holbrook has turned them around. Changes in personnel are needed. and we do need fresh ideas from the coaching side: but I think we also need input from someone who can help the players find that mental steel as well. Yesterday was another "special occasion" game, the club worked hard to get more fans in and, as on similar occasions throughout the season, the players didn't turn up mentally. Frankly, I can't wait for this season to end - and I felt the same last year, though the Grand Final win put a gloss on 2016. I can't see that happening this year.

No arguments with any of this.

To be honest, I think it would be absurd if Wigan got to Old Trafford this year. It's astonishing they've got this close, but if they did, it would only paper over the cracks that have been glaringly obvious for most of the rest of the season. Plus ... how would we feel about seeing Wigan v Castleford in front of 70,000 people, with millions more watching on TV, in a game that Cas really NEEDED to win? Yesterday, they did us at a canter, with nothing really to play for and their best players absent. The mind boggles at what kind of beating we'd take in the final.

The season's over as far as I'm concerned. The time to start rebuilding for next year starts now.

You can't really rebuild when players have contracts...we are in a tough spot to be fair. Our lack of movements whilst other clubs are building for the future shows how financially tied up we truly are. We are the only club with TWO marquee players for goodness sake, that is laughable. Neither Williams nor Tomkins are producing half of what Gale, Sneyd, Parcell, Houghton are for their respective clubs (and none of those are MARQUEE). I have no proof but I believe we missed out on Sutcliffe because we simply couldn't negotiate, meaning players we have on the books probably aren't willing to move on!

For me the big earners that don't produce (Gelling, Joel T, FPN, Tautai, Tommy L and Micky Mc) need moving along...

I've said pretty much since my first post Gelling needs to go, he is way more of a liabilty than a luxury. A solid, defensive minded #3 is what we need.
I genuinely have no clue whats happened or is happening to Joel Tomkins...wether a full pre-season will help, I guess only time will tell. But the shear volume of his salary could be utiliised elsewhere for sure.
FPN & Tautai are in the same boat, zero impact and mistakes galore, typical Shaun Wane style players IMO. Out played, out worked and out enthused by there opposite numbers 95% of the games played.
Tommy L...he's not a 7, he hasn't improved us at all since Matty Smith left. This is where the bulk of any salary cap needs placing!!!!
Micky Mc...can't fault his enthusiasm and desire but his stats for this season in the games he's played are way of the pace..added to the fact he can't play a full 80...Parcell, Houghton, Daryl Clark, James Roby and even Randell (Wakey) are head & shoulders above him.

However, I genuinely believe Shaun Wane will have sat down with IL and told him, had we not had the "injury crisis" we would already have the top-4 squared away! Leaving it down to KO rugby for the Semi. For our chairman that is probably good enough when you consider we are World Champions and CC Finalists. I guarantee there are zero crisis or even worrying conversations being had at Wigan RL HQ. Therefore, I wouldn't get excited about any rebuilding. We will have the same management, same squad and same game plan next year. After Saints beat Salford and either Hull beat Castleford or Wakefield beat us, I for one will be pleased the season is finally over* but won't be expecting any announcements.

* I say this because I would be scared to actually have to visit the Jungle and play Castleford in a semi-final game they actually need to win!

It has to come from the top down and for me I think it is time we overhauled the entire coaching set up. Wane has probably earned the right to another season to put things right even though personally I think it would be better if he stood down.

For Wane to remain in place however we would need to change the rest of the coaching team.

Jobs for the boys mentality has crept back in, our conditioning which was once the envy of other teams has now been surpassed by most of the other teams, both fitness and our susceptibility to injury.

A real assistant with new ideas needs to come in prefereably from the NRL.

I could go on and on but to be honest I share the same lethargy at the moment as the players seem to share.

Season ticket sales next year will be very interesting.

Season ticket sales will be abysmal

Again, I don't disagree with any of this. I know we can't just unload a mass of players who are on a good crack for doing nothing and will have no reason to willingly leave.

But there are areas of the team where we can and should start looking to the future.

We definitely need to sort the front row and the halfbacks out. These are crucial areas where we have been noiticeably lacking all season. Tommy is a massive weak link in the chain. If ever there was a time to get the cheque book out it was now in relation to our no. 7 shirt. The same can be said for our props. If it was me, I'd be definitely be looking at moving on at least some of the players both you and I have named at the very first opportunity.

Whether it will happen, or not, I don't know. But IL has never struck me as the kind of chairman who allows his coaches to lead him round by the hand. There is surely no way the club can be sitting back now and pretending there isn't a crisis. (They certainly took drastic action when it became apparent that Nobby was content to sit on his laurels and watch us keep on failing to make the grade).

The worst thing is that Castleford yesterday really reminded me of the Wigan team of the late 80s/early 90s. A bunch of solid, highly skilled professionals, augmented with some real natural talents, who are very fit, excellently drilled and mentally strong enough to easily see out games they don't even need to win. No hot-and-colds in their ranks, no 'best mate' selections, no fly-by-nighters, no 'men of the people' who are mainly there for comedy value. It's more than frustrating to see lessons that we once taught the game being put into expert practise by others, while we ourselves have seemingly sleepwalked into mediocrity.

I agree with all of that, you need to earn the right to move the ball out wide. Sending one up forwards does not test the opposition defence. We had players making yards but no back up so the defence dealt with them easily

Damn. Just typed out a fairly lengthy response then the site crashed on me. Basically, I'm with Jonh and Cruncher (not typing all that again!).

Speaking up for Gelling, yesterday he was doing what was asked of him. He ran hard and took on the line and made hard yards. In fact he looked just like a wide running second row, If we could find another centre that is exactly where I would put him.

I think he's pretty good at centre to be honest. We are small enough at second row as it is! He is just an easy target for when we are losing, people also tend to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater at these times (e.g criticism of Gildart and Williams also in this thread).

I think a big part of the difference was conditioning. They looked stronger, fitter, faster, and have barely had any injuries this year. We can't overhaul the playing personnel before 2018 (I wouldn't want to anyway, though a proper 7 and 8 would be nice if we didn't have a salary cap) but we can make changes to improve our strength and conditioning, which I think would go a long way to helping us compete with Cas, Leeds and Hull.