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| Beaten, bullied, out played.
Our attack seems highly predictable, seems to be the same movement every week, half/dummy runner to half/dummer runner to Sam linking up from the back causing a 3 v 2 overlap with Daz and Josh on his outside. From this we seem to get either Sam dummy and go, pass to Daz or cut out ball to Josh. (Of course this movement is evident on the other side of the pitch with George etc).
9/10 it works against lesser teams. its fast and with Sam's ability we score from it. But against a good coach it becomes transparent. Wire easily cancelled out our best attacking weapon (Sam) simply by having JM cut in and stop the moment when Sam is about to take on the ball. Regardless of such predictably there was no plan B.
In contrast when St George were coached by Wayne Bennett they perfected the moment whereas the defence had no idea who was going to run, who was going to be the dummy runner and who was going to finish with the ball.
They used Soward to break away, from here the defence would not know if he's going to take on the line or pass, with this he had a SR Ben Creagh alongside with Cooper and Morris as an attacking centre/winger partnership. To add another threat Boyd joined the line from FB. At this point any of the mentioned could be the ball carrier, anyone the dummy runner. When the 5 attack down the flank in a line the 3/4 of the opposition would be scared to death of what was going to come next.
We don't have such movement, we look predictable, basically cancel Sam and you've stopped our attack, with StG if Boyd was stopped one of the others would be still a threat.
I think we have the players to create something different, the drills need to be practised and coached, I barely see any other pattern, we play into the oppositions hands.
Warrington like to throw the 'first punch' hit us hard and keep on the pressure from the get-go, the opposition tire from tackle after tackle and become vulnerable and exposed, and of course when you're tired you are more likely to make mistakes. This happened, it's almost as if Wane fires up certain players so much they lose their heads, case in point Micky.
This season Micky has proven his ability as a top 9, however, at times, when fired up he seems more concerned with intensity and letting us all know how 'ard he is' rather than keeping a cool head. If he was a backrower it would be different, but as a 9 you must have composure and awareness, I for one have never ever seen Cam Smith lose his cool, today of all days, playing with just a single 9 he had to be so in-control, I feel he wasn't, (at one point he was rolling on the floor with Moz to show us how 'ard he is'.
This created such a negative impact, at times when we needed to generate momentum getting on a roll with the forwards we never did, Micky wasn't at the races. If he cooled down and became a 'game leader' rather that an enforcer we'd would have had more chance of winning the arm-wrestle.
The forwards were rattled, Wire brought an 'origin esque' attitude, a winning mentality which has been inspired by their coach and key on on field leaders, Morley showed his calibre and leadership which Hill followed with great effect. Westwood showed his winning desire and played for his life. Excellent mentality throughout.
In opposition to this who are actually our leaders? Lockers, love him, great player, but leader? Undecided. We have some excellent props but who's the enforcer/leader? If one of the props matched Morley maybe Micky wouldn't feel the need to enforce from 9. Eric for me was the best player, he brought it, pity Mossop didn't stand up, and I think it's about time Prescott was pushed to one side for other props, can't remember seeing a prop lose the ball so much on impact. Lima worked hard but he needs more support.
Hock is 'origin' in his approach but seems to have trouble raising intensity without losing his head, with this Wane panics and takes him off.
We don't seem mentally ready. Maybe Wane's I'll shout them down get angry until they play better approach isn't always the best way to deal with a beaten team. We almost seem nervous and afraid of Wire, we shouldn't be.
It's time for a plan B, more options in attack with a strong steel mentality which shows no fear, no backing down. Won't lose our heads or temperament but we'll tackle so hard they will be scared to take the line on.
Let this loss be the wake up call.
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| good post.
Thought our kicking game in open play was very effective today...it nullified the obvious attacking threat of Tomkins and kept you well and truly pegged back. Not sure you have made a good decision in buying Matty Smith.....he was behind a beaten pack..but never really showed anything in attack. Finch tried...but seemed to be unfit.
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| Quote ="Oxford Exile"good post.
Thought our kicking game in open play was very effective today...it nullified the obvious attacking threat of Tomkins and kept you well and truly pegged back. Not sure you have made a good decision in buying Matty Smith.....he was behind a beaten pack..but never really showed anything in attack. Finch tried...but seemed to be unfit.'"
Wire have a winning mentality, everything they did was with a driven mentality to win, so with this I agree the kicking game was good. they'd clearly discussed how and when to kick to minimise Sam's ability to make valuable yards.
I hope we get to the GF and face Wire, Wire are the benchmark, beating them in the GF would truly signify a 'grand' achievement.
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| Quote ="Oxford Exile"good post.
Thought our kicking game in open play was very effective today...it nullified the obvious attacking threat of Tomkins and kept you well and truly pegged back. Not sure you have made a good decision in buying Matty Smith.....he was behind a beaten pack..but never really showed anything in attack. Finch tried...but seemed to be unfit.'"
Forgot to mention...
I think Matty Smith will prove to be a good signing. Still a young lad who has already gained valuable SL experience. With this he has been fortunate enough to learn from Long and now Deacon and Harris, three experienced excellent halves with many years of experience to pass down. He has a good kicking game, and a good rugby brain, and his English so he could be a main stay at the club for years to come adding stability.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"
I hope we get to the GF and face Wire, Wire are the benchmark, beating them in the GF would truly signify a 'grand' achievement.'"
Warrington will have to qualify for their first ever Grand Final first, adding to their massive total of 2 wins in play off football since it started in 1998. Not much of a benchmark.
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| Quote ="Finfin"Warrington will have to qualify for their first ever Grand Final first, adding to their massive total of 2 wins in play off football since it started in 1998. Not much of a benchmark.'"
Today the top two teams in SL played. One dominated the other setting the benchmark for the league. Previous to that they beat Saints another top contender. I think it would be unusual to watch both games and consider past history more prevalent to recent performances.
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| Some very good points in that post. When it comes to McIlorum I just think too much is being asked of him. He throws his body all over the place game after game for 80 minutes and because we don't have a good back up hooker he seems to be overworked.
I also think it's a little harsh on Prescott. His error rate was criticised last year yet it was proven to be low and not really any different to our other props. Even now it's less than one error per game and not really enough to justify dropping him. At his best he's an excellent prop and I'd take close to 100m per game if it means making one error along with it.
He does have a tendency to make more errors when he's lacking match fitness though and that's what I can't understand about his selection. He could be nowhere near match fit so why throw him into a game against the best pack we'll come up against.
So I disagree about pushing him to one side. Getting him fit is important because when he is fit he's just as good as Mossop, if not better.
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| As we've been since Catalans......we were poor tonight. A few poor decisions I felt yes, but yet again I've left worrying about the rest of our season.
Thank you to the police and stewards btw who let me score in the corner.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Today the top two teams in SL played. One dominated the other setting the benchmark for the league. Previous to that they beat Saints another top contender. I think it would be unusual to watch both games and consider past history more prevalent to recent performances.'"
Hang on, weren't they certs to win it last season and choked? I agree they are looking good but until they have actually achieved a GF or GF win we should temper our adulation just a little.
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| I guess each person sees different qualities in different players. Personally from what I've seen of our other props I prefer Flower, Dudson, Lima and Eric. Plus Crosby is looking better each game.
Micky plays a certain way, I think he need more focus on the 9 role and less the enforcer.
Quote ="Cherry.Pie"Some very good points in that post. When it comes to McIlorum I just think too much is being asked of him. He throws his body all over the place game after game for 80 minutes and because we don't have a good back up hooker he seems to be overworked.
I also think it's a little harsh on Prescott. His error rate was criticised last year yet it was proven to be low and not really any different to our other props. Even now it's less than one error per game and not really enough to justify dropping him. At his best he's an excellent prop and I'd take close to 100m per game if it means making one error along with it.
He does have a tendency to make more errors when he's lacking match fitness though and that's what I can't understand about his selection. He could be nowhere near match fit so why throw him into a game against the best pack we'll come up against.
So I disagree about pushing him to one side. Getting him fit is important because when he is fit he's just as good as Mossop, if not better.'"
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| Quote ="Finfin"Hang on, weren't they certs to win it last season and choked? I agree they are looking good but until they have actually achieved a GF or GF win we should temper our adulation just a little.'"
What can I possibly say to that. I better not consider tonights game at all and replace with events from 12 months ago. Cheers for the advice.
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| Quote ="Finfin"Hang on, weren't they certs to win it last season and choked? I agree they are looking good but until they have actually achieved a GF or GF win we should temper our adulation just a little.'"
Agree, Wire were the better team today, but lets not get carried away, there is a way to go yet. As for a plan B, I dont think there is one, but in fairness most teams dont have a plan B.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"I guess each person sees different qualities in different players. Personally from what I've seen of our other props I prefer Flower, Dudson, Lima and Eric. Plus Crosby is looking better each game.
Micky plays a certain way, I think he need more focus on the 9 role and less the enforcer.
'"
Fair enough although I think it's worth pointing out that before today's game Prescott had the second highest average metres per game among our forwards, second only to Lima and ahead of Hock and all our other prop forwards.
Errors are bad and around one error per game is obviously around one error too many but I don't think it's any more concerning that Mossop's missed tackles. He was missing tackles against Hull too and it's a bit of a worry for me.
What a fully fit Prescott brings is an excellent ball player and someone who is hard to dominate in the tackle because he brings players down with him when tackled.
For me the only real issue with Prescott is that massive one that's always there, his injury record is terrible and a 'fully fit' Prescott is becoming quite a rare thing.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan" Cheers for the advice.'"
No problem, anytime.
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| Quote ="Cherry.Pie"Some very good points in that post. When it comes to McIlorum I just think too much is being asked of him. He throws his body all over the place game after game for 80 minutes and because we don't have a good back up hooker he seems to be overworked.
I also think it's a little harsh on Prescott. His error rate was criticised last year yet it was proven to be low and not really any different to our other props. Even now it's less than one error per game and not really enough to justify dropping him. At his best he's an excellent prop and I'd take close to 100m per game if it means making one error along with it.
He does have a tendency to make more errors when he's lacking match fitness though and that's what I can't understand about his selection. He could be nowhere near match fit so why throw him into a game against the best pack we'll come up against.
So I disagree about pushing him to one side. Getting him fit is important because when he is fit he's just as good as Mossop, if not better.'"
I would agree.
Part of me wishes that McIllorum would come up against a guy who knows how to handle himself and puts him on his .
Then he can hopefully concentrate on playing number 9, instead of trying to prove how tough he is.
It always amuses me how RL players can think that they can handle themselves. They can........to a degree. Pitch them against people who know what they are doing and 99.9% of them are like ballet dancers.
Back on topic. MM is a great number 9. Tonight he was doing so much work in defence, it hurt his attack.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Beaten, bullied, out played.
Our attack seems highly predictable, seems to be the same movement every week, half/dummy runner to half/dummer runner to Sam linking up from the back causing a 3 v 2 overlap with Daz and Josh on his outside. From this we seem to get either Sam dummy and go, pass to Daz or cut out ball to Josh. (Of course this movement is evident on the other side of the pitch with George etc).
9/10 it works against lesser teams. its fast and with Sam's ability we score from it. But against a good coach it becomes transparent. Wire easily cancelled out our best attacking weapon (Sam) simply by having JM cut in and stop the moment when Sam is about to take on the ball. Regardless of such predictably there was no plan B.
In contrast when St George were coached by Wayne Bennett they perfected the moment whereas the defence had no idea who was going to run, who was going to be the dummy runner and who was going to finish with the ball.
They used Soward to break away, from here the defence would not know if he's going to take on the line or pass, with this he had a SR Ben Creagh alongside with Cooper and Morris as an attacking centre/winger partnership. To add another threat Boyd joined the line from FB. At this point any of the mentioned could be the ball carrier, anyone the dummy runner. When the 5 attack down the flank in a line the 3/4 of the opposition would be scared to death of what was going to come next.
We don't have such movement, we look predictable, basically cancel Sam and you've stopped our attack, with StG if Boyd was stopped one of the others would be still a threat.
I think we have the players to create something different, the drills need to be practised and coached, I barely see any other pattern, we play into the oppositions hands.
Warrington like to throw the 'first punch' hit us hard and keep on the pressure from the get-go, the opposition tire from tackle after tackle and become vulnerable and exposed, and of course when you're tired you are more likely to make mistakes. This happened, it's almost as if Wane fires up certain players so much they lose their heads, case in point Micky.
This season Micky has proven his ability as a top 9, however, at times, when fired up he seems more concerned with intensity and letting us all know how 'ard he is' rather than keeping a cool head. If he was a backrower it would be different, but as a 9 you must have composure and awareness, I for one have never ever seen Cam Smith lose his cool, today of all days, playing with just a single 9 he had to be so in-control, I feel he wasn't, (at one point he was rolling on the floor with Moz to show us how 'ard he is'.
This created such a negative impact, at times when we needed to generate momentum getting on a roll with the forwards we never did, Micky wasn't at the races. If he cooled down and became a 'game leader' rather that an enforcer we'd would have had more chance of winning the arm-wrestle.
The forwards were rattled, Wire brought an 'origin esque' attitude, a winning mentality which has been inspired by their coach and key on on field leaders, Morley showed his calibre and leadership which Hill followed with great effect. Westwood showed his winning desire and played for his life. Excellent mentality throughout.
In opposition to this who are actually our leaders? Lockers, love him, great player, but leader? Undecided. We have some excellent props but who's the enforcer/leader? If one of the props matched Morley maybe Micky wouldn't feel the need to enforce from 9. Eric for me was the best player, he brought it, pity Mossop didn't stand up, and I think it's about time Prescott was pushed to one side for other props, can't remember seeing a prop lose the ball so much on impact. Lima worked hard but he needs more support.
Hock is 'origin' in his approach but seems to have trouble raising intensity without losing his head, with this Wane panics and takes him off.
We don't seem mentally ready. Maybe Wane's I'll shout them down get angry until they play better approach isn't always the best way to deal with a beaten team. We almost seem nervous and afraid of Wire, we shouldn't be.
It's time for a plan B, more options in attack with a strong steel mentality which shows no fear, no backing down. Won't lose our heads or temperament but we'll tackle so hard they will be scared to take the line on.
Let this loss be the wake up call.'" Great post,I believe SW should stop trying to"make his mark on his team" and revert to the staturgy MM used to use defensively.
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| Our Plan A is effective enough, the problem we have had recently is executing it. And a big factor in that has been the absence of Tommy. We've lost the fluidity of ball movement across the attacking line - everything seems a bit flat and jerky. We'll be reet for the playoffs though.
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"I would agree.
Part of me wishes that McIllorum would come up against a guy who knows how to handle himself and puts him on his booty.
Then he can hopefully concentrate on playing number 9, instead of trying to prove how tough he is.
It always amuses me how RL players can think that they can handle themselves. They can........to a degree. Pitch them against people who know what they are doing and 99.9% of them are like ballet dancers.
Back on topic. MM is a great number 9. Tonight he was doing so much work in defence, it hurt his attack.'"
he was liek a dog chasing a car at the game, i got a bit ed off that he just seemed to be picking who ever had the ball and chasing them even if they passed, so he'd catch up and put a needless shove on someone to intimidate them, it was pointless.
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| If we somehow amazingly got to OT, I'd pray Wire don't make it.
They have our number.
Out-coached to a frightening degree.
We won't be there, though.
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| A plan A executed today would have been good enough. We were
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| Well beaten, why? For a start all are timing was way off, passing, dummy running, and coming out of the defensive line. Our forwards may as well stayed at home. I started to wonder if SW hadn’t got them too pumped-up. It was obvious Finch was not on his usual game, and it looked like we wanted it too much, if that’s possible? We needed to just keep it simple, play out our sets, and gain better field position, just like they did! We never do well if we go behind early doors, and it’s no use picking out individuals; no one had a good game! I know we can put it right and the injured troops that are coming back must help, but the basic lesson of this must be SIMPLICITY! “simples”
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| IF Charnley had of lifted his feet up and scored inthe corner and the 7 metre forward pass was dissallowed these discussions wouldnt be happening. The problems seen with Leeds and Wire game is that Wigan stalled and then kept slipping gears. Wane has got so many things RIGHT, the lads need to set a target of completing 3 good sets and the rest will come. Up the jumper kick to the corner will see all nerves disappear. Have faith people
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| Wigans problem was that they had no halfbacks, there was two on the field but one was clearly injured and not up for it and the other is debatably not good enough to play for the club. On top of that most of our forwards were bullied and well beaten therefore not able to give us field position hence Sam Tomkins having a quiet game.
Wigan and Warrington are extremely alike, and yesterday Warrington did everything better.
We just have to hope that they'll shoot their whack early again or we could see them crowned as champions come October and we can't be having that can we!
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| Quote ="Mash Butty"IF Charnley had of lifted his feet up and scored inthe corner and the 7 metre forward pass was dissallowed these discussions wouldnt be happening. The problems seen with Leeds and Wire game is that Wigan stalled and then kept slipping gears. Wane has got so many things RIGHT, the lads need to set a target of completing 3 good sets and the rest will come. Up the jumper kick to the corner will see all nerves disappear. Have faith people'"
Disagree. Had Charnely scored and the forward pass been spotted we would've been beaten by a narrower margin that would have been tremendously flattering to us.
On a slight aside, something needs to be done about the number of forward passes that go unnoticed. If we have the technology for video refs, there must be technology to allow the video ref to ajudge forward passes.
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| Whatever the plan is it becomes irrelevant when you barely touch the ball for the first 20 mins and have no field position. The rest of the game after this wasnt a great deal better and it is quite amazing that we were only 10 points down at half time.
Some of the Wigan forwards were absolutely shattered after 10 mins with players struggling to get onside and this start set the tone for the rest of the game. Most of the pack had very poor games and made stupid mistakes at crucial times and this meant we couldnt get a foothold in the game. In that first half we needed to grind it out and work our way down the pitch but on almost every set someone made a mistake such as Mcilorum's forward pass and knock on, Prescotts knock on, Finch's shocking pass for the try etc. We were always on the back foot and fatigued after this start and were basically clinging on for the rest of the game. Likewise Warrington were a lot fresher after dominating at the start and it showed throughout the game. Yesterday we were a heavily fatigued team due to all the defensive work the players had to do (mostly through their own fault), had no ball and field position, and were against a team that hasnt really been made to work due to our own ineptitude and are much fitter and fresher. Against this any attacking move is going to struggle.
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